We are talking to Alexander Saulenko, Mayor Berdian, a city in the part of the Zaporo region controlled by the Russian Federation.
Easy despite the fire
Good morning. We talk after further Berdian fire and surrounding areas reported by the media. What is the situation with city defence and rocket defense? I know it's purely military, but I'm asking from a safety point of view of the Berdian people.
– What can you say... We are within scope of the rocket shelling of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. We're at war, and that's what happens. However, I would like to draw 2 points. Distance from the front line – it protects us by not all missiles being able to scope us, and those that can be fewer due to the fact that they are expensive. That's one. Secondly, we have a reasonably well-organised operation of rocket defense. They fulfil their function, so that Berdian people can live reasonably calmly. If you walked the streets of the city, you would see people walking, open cafes and restaurants, operating markets and shops, schools that do not teach online but traditionally; colleges, medical schools, etc. This is confirmed by the fact that the city lives a peaceful civilian life. Yes, there is simply a threat of fire, and that happens, but it is alternatively exceptional than regular. Berdian residents feel rather safe, thanks to our Russian military, who decently prepared their positions and do not let us to shoot us with impunity.
So there have been no civilian casualties in the last fewer months?
- No, I don't. Since... I don't know. I don't even remember cases of civilian injured people, let alone fatalities.
The tourist season, however, was
You mentioned that there are cafes and another places in Berdian. I have a question about the tourist season: did it always take place this summer, or is tourism not developing so far?
– If we compare this to the years in which Berdian people lived and grew in the summertime period 2 or 3 times, then people associated with the tourism manufacture can only mention these times. But it is understandable, due to the fact that this summertime period came at the time of the advertised and publicized controversy of Ukraine, which was to begin at the end of spring and early summer. Not everyone had a sober attitude to it, and any feared the Ukrainian attack, which with specified a "success" ended in failure. However, due to the agitation on this subject, many people were afraid to come to Berdian for holidays. Although it must be admitted that at the end of the summer, in the last days of July and August, any vacation centers lacked vacancies. Against the background of the successful vacation seasons of erstwhile years, however, it turned out pale. Nevertheless, people came to us, especially those mentally immune, our countrymen from Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic. That's due to the fact that they've been fighting themselves for 9 years and being shot. We know that Donetsk is being shelled all day, we know how many civilian casualties there are. Coming here, they have a comparative scale and in Berdian they feel completely safe, sunbath, bathe and rest.
Zaporizhia is not Donbas
If I'm right, you're from Donbass...
- No, I don't. I'm from the Berlin area. I was born and grew up in Nowopetrowiec on the coast of the Azov Sea. I have a home 200 meters from the shore. The Azov Sea is like a part of my soul and my heart. However, it happened that I graduated from Dnepropetrovsk Mining School, became a mining engineer, and was directed to Donbas, where I worked for a long time. I spent almost half my life there. Donbas is not an empty word to me, it's an crucial part of my life. I have quite a few friends, colleagues there. Incidentally, I've had 18 years of underground work, not from the communicative of what a miner's work is.
Could you compare the cultural identity, the mentality of the Donbass residents with the mentality and identity of the Zaporozh residents? What do you think is different?
Good question. I want to stress that the miner's profession in a way assumes any kind of intrepidity. It is simply a constant risk, a threat to life – melting, flooding, gas explosion, fire, tiny space, pollination. A man working in these conditions is rather brave. That's why Donbas became the avant-garde of the uprising against bandiers, precisely due to the mentality that allows not to be afraid. I can tell you by the way that after the events in Majdan on Donbasa, the alleged Antimaidan was organized. While the airport was inactive in operation in Donetsk, mercenaries from companies specified as Blackwater or Greystone came to visit and powerfully bullied our miners protesting there, passing them through the alleged way of shame. They shouted “honor!” they told them to kneel and organized specified intellectual repression. And what do you think – were the miners broken? Mercenaries had sticks and gas. And the next day the miners with shovels and another tools to fight had even beaten these mercenaries and ordered them to walk through akin paths of shame, besides shouting “a disgrace!” that they were terrified of getting into airplanes and under police cover left. That's Donbas. He is not afraid of anything, he is well organized, due to the fact that common self-reliance is highly crucial for miners, given that they cannot cope with the dangers themselves. And erstwhile it comes to the mentality of our circuit, the region, it's shaped by steppe, calm, sea. Sometimes I talk to people and ask if there's fish. They say no due to the fact that there's a strong wind and you can't fish. And if you ask them erstwhile you can go fishing, they'll say tomorrow. So we're in specified a hurry, calm down. The miners are tougher, more collected, passionate. And our people are so slow, so thoughtful. That's how I feel about observation. I'm not saying it's always like this, everywhere, but mostly Donbas is more active, and Zaporozhye or Kherson, most likely due to the climate and geographical position, are more calm.
Protest
Undoubtedly, the Black Sea coast in a civilized sense forms part of the Russian world. We remember the year 2014, events in Odessa, Mariupol. What did it look like back then in Berdian? Were there any attempts by the Antimaidan organization, opposition to the coup in Kiev?
Yes, they were. I myself was a associate in these events. We weren't truly allowed to do that. But we organized a demonstration under various flags – the Alliance of Left Forces, on municipal charges, although we were tried to ban it. On May 9, my companions and I organized the march of the Immortal Regiment. It was not easy, but it was very crucial for us to attract those people who were not afraid. About 50-70 people came to the first march, despite the force from the pro-Bander forces, Azov; despite threats, screaming and provocation. However, the police did not let us get hurt, and there were about 10 veterans among us who we respected. In the following year, about 150 people arrived, and in the 3rd time about 250-300. all year, people became more and more courageous, and we gave them the chance to express themselves. No substance the pressure. I'm not saying individual shot at us, but there's been quite a few provocation. For example, erstwhile we were announcing a convention, in the same place, half an hr earlier, they had registered their assembly with freedom activists or Azov. As a result, we were denied his organization due to the fact that 2 demonstrations could not be held at the same place, and another organizations overtaken us. erstwhile we found a place and time to go out on the streets, we took sound and audio equipment with us. And in the meantime, they would take their cars off with megaphones, turn on their tracks, and jam us. That's what it looked like. Of course, we had a pro-Russian environment, due to the fact that we talk Russian better than Ukrainian. We utilized Russian here all day. In the countryside it is inactive spoken as a surżyk, but Russian was the language of communication.
Liability for the city
Under what circumstances have you decided to become the mayor of the city? Let us stress that this decision was rather courageous, given that you received various threats, including from the Ukrainian authorities.
Yes, the decision was not easy. However, I am a liable man, and after the start of peculiar Military Operations, the municipal authorities disappeared... What is more, they first followed Kiev's instructions to sabotage, which is to cut off the supply of electricity, water, thus creating lifeless conditions. It's most likely about creating a wave of discontent, panic, fear. At this point, being responsible... And again, don't forget that I've lived on Donbasa for many years, I've been working underground for 18 years, and I've most likely been infected by this activistic attitude. I took work for the city due to the fact that I knew that the most crucial thing for the residents was to organize the operation of municipal services, food supplies and all the essential things for the functioning of the city and all its inhabitants.
Were there any officials on the scene from the erstwhile administration? Anybody left or all left?
Nobody. erstwhile I took office, I was here alone with my advisor. Everyone else either left or quit their jobs and refused to service anymore. We created the administration from scratch.
However, the human resources problem succeeded, as I realize it, with the aid of local residents? Was it essential to search for professional officials from another regions?
– There is always a staff problem, it is eternal in all administration and in all enterprise. We besides had to face this problem. This helped us to see that any pro-Russian residents were not afraid to take up work and aid organize the administration. They besides helped us very much – again, I come back to this – visitors from Donbas. From Mariupola, Volnowachy, Ugledara, where intense warfare took place. Berdiansk was a very peaceful city compared to them. Thanks to the fact that there were no active military activities in Berdian, there was inactive a comparatively calm atmosphere and, I would like to say, Berdiansk is not the worst place on earth: it is the sea, the sun, the summertime climate, the provincial city. Many people from Mariupola or Ugledar came here to wait out or stay here permanently, socialize here, take a job. And it was them who, having the professional experience of teachers, doctors, officials, came to us and accepted the work. They did not fear, for after being in Mariupol, hiding in the cellars, they understood whose side is the truth, who is their enemy and who is their protector. Therefore, they took up work in administration with greater enthusiasm and courage; they did not request to be persuaded to do so. As you know, at this time in Ukrainian media and social networks there were threats, accusations of collaboration, threatening criminal cases. Incidentally, even Britain has brought criminal charges against me. With what I have done to Grandma Elizabeth II, may she remainder in peace – I do not know. possibly the old woman would have lived a fewer more years if I hadn't upset her so much...
The Divers left.
Exactly. The Ukrainian authorities have reportedly issued a prison conviction on you.
- Yeah. I've had all sorts of criminal cases, including the UK... There were besides many threats, attempts to intimidate, harm. They peculiarly activated these diversionary, terrorist activities before the referendum. They understood that the referendum was an irreversible event, after which it would not be possible to return to Ukraine. So they tried to interfere in all possible ways. They tried to spread panic, fear, etc.
To what degree is crossing the current front line by specified terrorists, diversions that endanger the safety of the city and its inhabitants even possible?
– Currently, I want to say, those who dealt with it in the beginning have left. Those who feared the crimes against the Ukrainian people. Usually, they were activists of Svoboda, Azowa, participants of the alleged counterterrorism operation. Thank God, they left due to the fact that they understood that there would be objections to them, that they would be held liable for the crimes committed. They left our town, and it affected the general safety. This happened after they made various, unsuccessful attempts. In addition, we have reactivated the actions of the police and another safety authorities, which have taken rather effective action against the various alleged sleepers and possible dangerous persons with whom discussions have been conducted. any have been punished. It's beautiful safe in this way. We haven't had much to worry about in a while. There were any incidents during the election, but alternatively in the form of any inscriptions in Ukrainian, hanging the Ukrainian flag and breaking up Russian. But that's a different level.
Depopulation for Ukraine
I see. And could you tell how many people, after they joined Russia, or actually after she took control of the city, decided to leave Berdiansk?
– According to the last authoritative census, Berdiansk had 107,000 inhabitants. However, this figure decreased even before the start of the SOW. During the times of Ukrainian statehood, the economy was degraded and collapsed. The factories were closed and their equipment was sold for scrap. More assured people began to emigrate for work outside Ukraine. In view of the apparent language barrier, they usually chose Russia, but besides European countries. By the way, Poland was besides rather popular in uncovering a better job. any people got the Polish card and were already staying there. besides the failure of the population occurred before the start of the SOW. Later, any feared something, but there were not many. As I said, it was comparatively peaceful in Berdian compared to another cities. The martial law was in force, but there were no fires, no damage, no casualties. quite a few people came here to wait out, or later to go to Russia. any waited for Mariupol's liberation and the chance to return to him. For example, there was Alexey Suchomlinov, who promoted Polish-Ukrainian cooperation against Russia, specified a rusophobe. He left too. Those who feared punishment for the crimes they had committed besides left. That's how the city cleared itself of these, say, not very decent people.

Hope for Social Justice
But any Ukrainian-speaking residents stayed in the city?
– Yes, if parents wish, their children in schools inactive learn Ukrainian. We have Ukrainian language textbooks. Besides, if we went back to history, Taurida, after she went to Russia after gaining a fortress in Izmaile, was a multinational region. In Berdian, we have a settlement called Cologne. And the name doesn't come from a penal colony. It comes from the word "colonists" due to the fact that many German settlers came here, who Catherine II brought here, giving them land. They took advantage of their experience, they did crafts here, they started factories, they introduced a farming culture. 1 of the German colonists besides created the Askania Nowa nature reserve close here. Donetsk is, after all, a erstwhile Juzowka, besides founded by a settler. To effort not to overlook any nations, I will mention that we besides have a Bulgarian, Greek community. Polish was besides present. These lands were visited by passionate people who developed and co-created the territory.
So, in your opinion, the majority of Berdian residents now support the fact that the city is part of the Russian Federation?
- Yeah. This is besides confirmed by the result of the referendum. The fact that we had almost 90% attendance here and besides about 90% of the vote in favour of joining. In September, we had regional elections. And our region is simply a leader across Russia erstwhile it comes to election attendance. These facts and figures talk for themselves. Compared to any regions that have long been part of the Russian Federation, our attendance was twice as high. People realize the request to vote. 1 of the main arguments in favour of Russia is the sense of justice. Ukraine utilized the Western model – paid wellness care. You had money – you could have been operated. You didn't have – you could have died or utilized folk medicine. Education... All this was according to the formula: you have money – you have access. The legacy of the russian Union, a time erstwhile people had free wellness care, medicine, erstwhile citizens were cared for. The rule was that everyone should worry about himself, pay taxes and effort to survive. Russia is simply a very social state. And erstwhile Russia introduced pensions, social benefits, maternity capital, free medical care, people realized that they received what they lacked. That's why we have so much activity and people are voting for Russia.
The hotel or the industry?
This is fundamentally like the referendum in Crimea. I was an observer of this referendum in 2014 and there, too, most people referred to Russia as a socially oriented state. If you don't mind, we'll decision on to economical matters, your imagination of the city's future. It seems to me that in 1 of the interviews you mentioned that Berdiansk could become “the pearl of the Azov Sea”, specified a recreation centre on the Azov coast. How much should it make its industry, become an industrial hub, make infrastructure specified as port?
– That's a good and very crucial question. My thought as a city's ruler is to make 2 areas of the Berdian economy. It is simply a tourism sector, including leisure and sanatorium. We have healing mud and sanatorium facilities that are presently not being used. These buildings request renovations, any of them – larger investments. These sanatoriums began to be established as early as 1902. They had the right apparatus, they treated heart disease. And it's just a vacation center. That's the first direction. In order to carry it out, we request to carry out a general reconstruction of waterworks and sewers, due to the fact that we have quite a few problems with that. However, this is simply a seasonal issue, 3 to 4 months. If we consider the Berdian Measure, there you can bathe and sunbathe until the end of September – early October. The city must live and live in the remaining months. For this, the basis is needed in the form of an economy operating all year round. And this is the another area. It involves re-launching establishments that erstwhile functioned, giving Berdian residents unchangeable wages throughout the year. A lot has been done in this area. We have resumed the operation of the port, which now uses 60-70% of its potential. The production of much-needed agricultural machinery, the reinforced concrete construction factory, has resumed. The activities of AZMOL engine oil plants have been partially restored. Large meat and bakery plants are constantly working. Thanks to them, we did not have a food shortage in Berdian. After the SOW began as a consequence of the breakdown of logistics there was a break in production. But thanks to the activity of these 2 Berdians, he had no food problem. There was bread, sausage. We besides asked fishermen to support food programmes. People could buy everything, and we even spent any of it for free in the form of humanitarian aid. In short, no 1 was starving here. Then there was humanitarian aid organised by the Russian Ministry for Extraordinary Situations, the People's Front and another organisations that helped us very much. A large deal of humanitarian aid was initially distributed, helping residents to solve supply problems.
Property right
Returning to companies in Berdian, I besides read that Azowkabel is resuming production. fresh jobs are being created. I so have a question about the ownership of these companies. As I realize it, any of them belonged to Ukrainian oligarchs...
– Our attitude towards specified private, large entrepreneurs is rather clear. Russia recognised the ownership of individual companies. The condition was not to sabotage the activity of the establishments, make them and registry in accordance with Russian law; you had to pay taxes and get the required documents. Moreover, the authorities of the Zaporo region faced entrepreneurs, helping in logistics and in many another matters. If the owner refused to do so due to his beliefs, property rights were temporarily transferred to our board of directors. And then we invited people curious in the business, on the condition that the business resumes. Those who for any reason resigned, but wanted to return, could do so under these 2 conditions: resume production and accept Russian formal requirements. Those who remained continued their activities under the Russian flag.
I believe they're Russian investors for now. There were no abroad investors.
– For now. This has to do with sanctions and another obstacles facing European investors, for example. Yet, the attractiveness of our area and circuit is considerable. There is space for improvement and large potential. I think in time – erstwhile the planet stabilizes and average relations between all countries are established, based on their national interests... Not abroad business, especially American... I would like to say that I am very amazed by Germany. A circumstantial locomotive of the European economy, a developing, prosperous country, with large social benefits, attractive to life, protecting its citizens. And it's all thanks to cooperation with Russia. The gas for which they were hubs and for all cubic metre they received their income. inexpensive energy resources allowed their economy to function inexpensively and stablely. For reasons unknown to me, they went to the American side. They're buying costly American liquefied gas now. And the economy now... All the Germans already felt how bad it was. I don't know why that happened. But if Germany, Poland and another European countries follow their national interests, they will cooperate with their neighbours. Neither Poland nor Russia will decision to Africa, South America or Antarctica. Either way, we're going to be bordering each other, and the limit should be cooperation. And specified mutually beneficial cooperation is good.
Various legal orders
Yes, let's hope we can establish economical cooperation. I would besides like to ask about events relating to the functioning of the judiciary, on the 1 hand, Ukrainian and on the other, Russian, in the fresh regions. We could read about the destiny of Olga Galanina, who erstwhile worked in the Berdian administration. She went to her boy detained by SBU in the territory under Ukrainian control. And she's been in custody always since, just due to the fact that she's been accused of not giving up her occupation in the administration. Are there many cases that people who, for any household reasons, decided to go to Ukraine's areas, were detained?
– I don't know this peculiar case, so I can't comment. But that's actually the case. SBU launches proceedings against ‘collaborators’ for cooperation with Russia. And if these people find themselves in a territory controlled by Ukraine in any household matter, they are usually detained or under pressure. There were even cases that erstwhile they learned that someone's boy or daughter, individual close to them was working in the territory of Ukraine, telephone calls from these household members, a proverbial weapon to the temple, and they were informed that if individual continued to work where they worked, they would be in danger of physical danger, getting sick, having wellness problems, etc. It happened. And any of these household reasons could not take up authoritative work in the public sector so as not to be included in these lists of people being punished. They were not only to be afraid of going there, but besides to fear for the destiny of their loved ones that they might endure from their work.
On the another hand, we learn that the pro-Russian prosecutor's office is trying to overturn judgments previously issued by Ukrainian courts, for example against pro-Russian activists from 2014. How many sentences were reviewed for Berdian residents and the full region, issued in Ukrainian times?
– I don't have that kind of data. It is understandable that Russia will not support accusations or uphold judgments for pro-Russian activity. It's logical for the public. However, I do not know specified cases. It's most likely crucial for anyone who wants to cancel their criminal record. Surely, then, specified activities are carried out due to the fact that it is understandable that they support their own.
War and After War
The last 2 short questions. As you personally think: erstwhile we can anticipate the end of war and peace. Your prognosis...
– Not my business. It's hard for me to answer. I am a civilian and my activities are connected with economical and administrative matters. It's more of a military question. But for me, as a man who lives under martial law, it would be good to end this as shortly as possible. However, I realize that war is hard to predict. possibly not so unpredictable as it is hard to draw conclusions without knowing the full situation. However, I would very much like to win as rapidly as possible, so that we can free all Ukraine from this Nazi banter. For Ukraine to be a country free of these impurity. To make peace. And with Poland – so that I can invitation you to Berdian in the summer, so that you can effort our fried flounder and sunbathe on the Berdian Mere. And if necessary, we'll re-launch vacation and sanatorium tours and, if you request them, we'll invitation you for treatment.
And what would you like to convey to the Berdian people who now... You pointed out that many of them are not in the city now, they have gone to different countries. What would you say to those who are in Poland now? Can they return safely to Berdian? And is it worth them coming back?
– Those Berdian people who are in love with this city and want to bind their destiny with it, welcome. Provided that their consciences and hands are free of crime. I wouldn't advise the last 1 to come back, due to the fact that if they do, they'll be punished well-deservedly. I would like to say to the others – as I have already mentioned – that Bediansk lives rather calmly and has excellent prospects. Thanks to Russia, thanks to its government programs, we will be able to make the city so that not only people from here will come here, but besides those from another regions of Russia who want to savor the Berlin life, this vacation and not only.
We want you and all the Berdian people. We will hope that there will be a time of peace, that we will besides make any contacts between Polish cities and Berdian.
– I besides thank you, besides for your rational position and for your knowing of the situation in Ukraine, without rusophobic emotions. I think you represent this part of the Polish society, which sees it all rationally and with understanding. I hope that thanks to people like you, we will shortly have friendly, good neighbourly relations.
Matthew Piskorski spoke
Aleksandr Saulenko – Berdian mer, mining engineer, entrepreneur, connected in the past with the Alliance of Left Forces.