We print an interview with Colonel Boris Chollet, Colonel of the Swiss Army and Head of the Swiss Confederation's Terrestrial Army Intelligence, presided over by Aleksandra Klunik-Schaller.
In NATO structures
The colonel is the highest rank in the Swiss army, in this army a general is nominated only for wartime.
Well, I'm a colonel in the General Staff, which means I've been trained in all kinds of weapons. I can plan infantry operations. I can plan artillery and anti-aircraft defense. That's what we call the General Staff. It is actual that the General is appointed only during the war. This was the case with Generals Guisan and Dufour to name only the two. But there are besides officers we call generals: a brigade, a divisional officer, and a corps commander. I am what they call a elder officer, from the rank of major or commandant – that is what it is called in the French army – to the degree of colonel. In the old days – inactive during planet War II – we spoke to Colonel Brigadier, Colonel of the Division, Colonel of the Corps. But the names changed. present people confuse them and even those who have the title of Brigadier Colonel consider themselves Brigadier generals. But in fact, the general is only nominated during the war.
You were a colonel in the General Staff, in the intelligence unit?
I was head of the Army's intelligence service.
And, as I noted, head of military intelligence training.
Exactly.
You did missions in Germany, France...
– I participated in a series of conferences and exercises with NATO. I've been to almost all country; Turkey, Italy, Germany, Britain...
So you're a colonel who knows the Secret Service and NATO well. How long did you serve?
– Well, I went to NATO; to NATO school, and here you gotta separate NATO school from College NATO. NATO College is in Rome, and NATO School was – I do not know if it is inactive there –in Oberammergau, Germany, more specifically in Bavaria. I attended NATO School and, if memory serves, I started going there in 1998, 2 years after Switzerland signed the Peace Partnership.
I see. And erstwhile did you end your service?
– I retired early in 2014.
So you actually saw Poland and another east European countries join NATO?
- Yeah. I even went to Poland for practice.
What the interview does
So we're gonna talk about peculiar services and NATO today.
- Good.
But first of all, I would like to ask: why are there so many inventions surrounding this profession?
- Intelligence profession?
Yes, surrounding intelligence and peculiar services; they seem to have the right to do whatever they want.
– No, there is simply a legal framework, I would say that in democratic countries we have legal basis, so they have no right to do everything.
The borders depend on the country? Are there countries that let the service do more?
Restrictions depend on the country. The end justifies the means. I think countries specified as China and North Korea let for more.
I get it, they're spying on more.
But the regulation is inactive the same. There are always 3 large blocks. In intelligence services: we have national intelligence services that are liable for protecting the population. Then we have a abroad interview that's trying to figure out what's going on abroad, beyond the border and beyond. And we have military intelligence trying to figure out how the armed forces evolve to adapt their own doctrines, and even their command structures.
I see. And this is about collecting information and analyzing information?
It depends on the intelligence cycle. I would say that there is always an indicative part, i.e. political or military power, which will say what it wants, will indicate the direction to which the interview needs to be understood. Then there's the search specialization. So there are people who will look for intelligence; then there is an analytical part; then there is simply a production part. Here you request to know whether an oral summary is being created, whether written papers are being produced; or whether a review is being made... And then there's distribution, that is, to whom we transmit the results of all this production.
There's inactive prediction; forecasting. Is that what peculiar services do?
- No, it's not like that. I mean, forecast is part of the full investigation system. In another words, you want to know what could happen in 2035, that's a forecast. But the intelligence cycle is fundamentally always the same. Higher power, whether political or military, must tell us what kind of intelligence to look for. Intelligence is then sought. Then the intelligence analysis takes place. And then, like I said, there's a production: a report. And finally, there's a distribution; you request to know who's getting intelligence.
Powerful services?
Good. Are there any crucial differences between countries in the way they conduct themselves, or in their mandates, in the way they conduct intelligence?
– No, I wouldn't say that, but of course all country has its own intelligence structure. If we take Switzerland for example; officially Switzerland has the Confederate intelligence service; it is simply a kind of abroad intelligence. Then we have military intelligence that does research. And what else: no home intelligence; it's always a bit complicated. In Switzerland, we have what we call the National safety Network. It is liable for 2 departments, namely the Department of Justice and Police and the Department of Defence and civilian Protection. And there are directors from different cantons due to the fact that in all canton there are directors liable for collecting intelligence, they meet sporadically. This is what we call the National safety Network.
But why is it that sometimes people, civilian society, fear peculiar services? They are believed to be all-powerful.
“The problem is that people frequently fear what is done in secret.
Absolutely, but that's all it is?
– I would add that in Switzerland, what frightened the Swiss was erstwhile it was revealed that there were files in which information about people was being placed. Nobody knew about it at the time, and it frightened the public. Now people inactive think, rightly or not, that part of the fact is hiding from them.
But, for example, sometimes we read in the press that peculiar services have organized any kind of attack. Or that they've organized the departure of any political opponent or that they've arranged wiretaps.
– In fact, I said that intelligence services are looking for information from outside and inside the country, for example by tracking elements marked as jihadists, people who could radicalize in Switzerland. Now you gotta wonder if you should be afraid. Depends on what it's done, and by whom. Take, for example, the French intelligence directorate, what we call external intelligence. For a long time we have called these DGSE services; names are frequently changed and we should be careful, due to the fact that names are changed only to confuse people a little. There utilized to be an operation division that conducted targeted, secret actions to influence society. So, if I take a very well-known case, namely the Rainbow Warrior case, I can say it was a French failure. I don't remember exactly, I think it was 1985, I might be incorrect about the date. The Rainbow Warrior ship intended to disrupt the Mururoa atomic tests. peculiar Services blew up a ship that belonged to Greenpeace, and unfortunately, 1 individual died. So there was a department of operations there, and I think that all major country has an operational state service, whether it's France, Italy or Israel, if the country has a large service, then there is an operational department. By definition, these very powerful services have an operations division, you can call it whatever you want. Their aim is to carry out targeted, secret actions, always to defend the state. The intent of Rainbow Warrior's action – which was carried out with green light from Mitterrand, due to the fact that the defence minister – whom, if memory serves me, was Charles Hernu – went for green light to president Mitterrand. Well, that was to avoid making a bad image of atomic tests...
Theories and plots
There is besides the case of Jeffrey Epstein, a case that is recalled from time to time. It's not clear if he was blackmailing politicians...
– But of course; erstwhile you see that in Epstein's affair many people are quoted; specified as the brother of Prince Charles, now King Charles, it is apparent that there are many people who are afraid present due to the fact that they know that their name can be mentioned and can start with president Trump.
Kennedy's murder? I think I read that president Putin – who himself was a associate of the secret services before becoming a politician – just said that he would uncover the Kennedy case documents. Is that possible?
- Yes, yes, you saw what I saw. There were so many theories about the death and assassination of Kennedy... I'm certain it's not 1 man's fault. That's impossible. 1 man's communicative doesn't make sense. There is simply a explanation that John Fitzgerald Kennedy wanted to rise his oil taxation and actually went to Texas and died in Dallas...There is another thesis that says that JFK was impressed by the hazard of the outbreak of planet War III, that he wanted to put an end to the influence of the military-industrial complex and that they killed him.
Exactly. But you can see that all of this provokes speculation and fear.
Of course, yes. There are besides all another stories about companies infiltration: benzene in Perrier's water, frigates in Taiwan...I would say Switzerland is far behind erstwhile it comes to economical espionage. The French are far more advanced than we are erstwhile it comes to economical espionage and counterintelligence. We have surrendered here and should not be amazed by what has happened to the duties today. But it wouldn't be if we had what it takes to shield ourselves. Of course, then there's the problem of retaliation. The national Council did not want to retaliate. It's a political choice. But I am inactive convinced that Switzerland is flying backwards erstwhile it comes to economical espionage. I'm not talking about financial espionage. Let us make a clear discrimination between economics and finances.
EU specialities?
And what do you think of Ursula von der Leyen's statements that she would like to make a service, either for herself or for the European Commission, I do not know, a secret service that would centralized national secret services? What would that be? Intelligence? Operations?
"This president of the European Commission is so critical... 3 Euro MPs: French, Belgian and Slovak, can be found rapidly on YouTube, inactive attacking her on the basis of concrete examples.
How about Virginia Joron?
No, I won't, but they're easy to find. Mrs. von der Leyen has quite a few problems. She made all her texts and e-mails disappear. How is that possible? I don't know. Well, the vast majority of Members had nothing to say about it. These people gain over 8,000 euros a month, not to mention the various additives they receive. So this lady's criticism is not in their business. And Ursula von der Leyen, returning to the question, already has an intelligence center. But this intelligence service provides the European Commission with information on what is happening abroad, i.e. outside the European Union. And now Ursula von der Leyen wants to control what is happening inside the European Union. That's her goal. That's the danger. Do you understand? And I'm inactive convinced that if things go as they go, she'll have her own intelligence center.
Is this part of the federalization of the European Union? Is that what superstate building is about?
- Watch out, if you're telling me about federalization,Many people believe that the federation of states is the target. But that is not the nonsubjective of the Commission. The Commission wants a centralised European Union. If we consider Philippe Seguin, yes, he was a supporter of the European Union, but it was not the European Union of Mrs Ursuli von der Leyen.
NATO promises
Now I'd like to decision on to NATO. You know this subject and you have seen the improvement of this organization. It is simply a 1949 defensive treaty, to defend the Allies against communism, to stand other the east block. And then we saw NATO transform and we saw the alliance bomb Serbia in 1999, Libya in 2011. Now we hear Admiral Giuseppe Cava Dragone, who explains that we request to consider the anticipation of organising a preemptive, preventive attack on Russia... How to justice NATO’s current doctrine?
Well, you always gotta look at history. You say NATO is simply a defensive organization.
At least that's what they say.
Of course. But NATO was created in 1949 and the Warsaw Pact was signed in 1955. If there is an organization that is defensive, it is the Warsaw Pact. Looking back, if we look at the statements that were made, at first no 1 wanted NATO to grow east. Even Russia wanted to join the Euro-Atlantic Partnership or the Euro-Atlantic Dialogue. But Russia was not wanted. In 1994, even earlier – in 1993, on October 4, 1993, president Yeltsyn shot Duma. It was, in my opinion, the first American test to see how easy it would be to push east. This worked well: Yeltsin shot up Pride and Clinton most likely – at least that's what he said – promised Yeltsin 1.5 billion for continuing reforms due to the fact that his intention was to reform. And already in 1994 Clinton says that you can now grow eastwards. Angela Merkel said there would be no expansion east due to the fact that it was promised. There was besides Chancellor Schroeder and there were changes to the oral agreement. And we must callback Roland Dumas' words. Dumas was present to make this oral promise. But verbal promises in politics are binding only on those who make them... So, in 1994, Clinton said you could grow NATO east. Ukraine joined the Peace Partnership in 1994. 2 years later, Switzerland joined the Peace Partnership. And then, in 1999, there was the first wave of expansion. Then, with each wave of expansion, it was seen that you couldit's inactive done and it's inactive done.
Partnership for NATO Peace and Network
Partnership for Peace means, in fact, joint training and communication? There are no stationed troops. There's no stationed weapon.
- No, I don't. Partnership for Peace aims to harmonise military doctrine. And then we're going for training together. There is simply a paper that can be found on the Internet, I mean a very interesting article by Arnaud Dotezac entitled Aller-Simple pour l’OTAN (One-way ticket to NATO). Arnaud Dotezac explains that Switzerland has sold all its secrets by signing a Partnership for Peace.
Good. Let's look into it.Wait.Who was signed to the Peace Partnership. Why am I asking this question? due to the fact that there are 2 of your fellow countrymen who, in my opinion, justify – justify academic work and professional work – that Switzerland should stay neutral. I mean Daniele Ganser and D.A. Dick Marty, who had to live under strong police protection for the remainder of his life.
- Yes, it is.
Daniele Ganser wrote any books, but 1 of them truly got loud. I mean, NATO secret armies. It was Ganser's PhD job. It showed that from the very beginning NATO was organizing in various countries a grid called Stay Behind. From the very beginning NATO had plans – after 1945, after the war – to search for people who were profoundly anti-communist or anti-Soviet in various European countries. And the point was that they wanted to turn them into militants, organizing armed cells in different countries. For example, the LOC organization in Greece, which helped, according to Daniel Ganser, lead to the dictatorship of the colonels. There was a network of Absalon in Denmark, ROC in Norway, a P26 cell in Switzerland, Rose des Vents in France. There were another cells in Portugal that helped dictator Salazar. But what's interesting is that according to the author, CIA and MI6, he coordinated NATO. So they recruited notorious anti-communists to carry out military operations or terrorist attacks: Piazza Fontana, train station in Bologna.
- Yeah, it was a Red Brigade case.
Yes, but according to Daniel Ganser, the detonation at the Bologna station in 1981, Piazza Fontana in 1969, killing president Aldo Moro in 1978 – we owe it all to Gladio, the Stay Behind network.
– Here I would like to return to Ukraine, due to the fact that in 2023 in the Canadian Parliament we saw applause for Jarosław Hunk, a veteran of SS Galizien. For example, we have besides seen that in Oakville, Ontario, there is simply a monument in the cemetery to the glory of SS Galizien. There was a committee of justice Jules Deschenes that showed that there were about 600 Waffen SS soldiers who came to Canada from Ukraine. Is it possible that NATO is profoundly anti-communist, anti-Soviet or anti-Russian; given that there is no communism in Russia anymore? So let's say it's anti-Russian. And that people who plan in NATO are planning so many years ahead, even for one, 2 or 3 generations, that they can, if necessary, return at a given minute with people who will be willing to give glory to Bandera, as is the case at this moment. Making Azowski's regiments, how it was done. You think that's possible? I'll mention to NATO Secret Army Daniel Gansera. I think there is no uncertainty that this was the case, but these concepts should be seen in a circumstantial context. This concept is simply a concept. Stay Behind. nonsubjective Stay Behind was conducting activities hostile to the Warsaw Pact behind the Warsaw Pact's defence lines. We were talking about P26, but P26 was something else. P26's aim was to avoid the same problems as the 1 revealed in France, namely that erstwhile Jean Moulin took over the leadership of the resistance, he had to confederate various opposition movements. So in Switzerland, we wanted to prepare a opposition seed in case we had to decision to the resistance. The script is that the army lost, you're on the way to the loser, so you resist. So we wanted a group of people capable of carrying out resistance. P26 never intended to go behind the front lines, that would be against the rules. That's it, now I'm gonna finish the P26 case. I stay convinced that P26 was not an organization akin to the Gladio network. However, there is another grey region and the fact that there was 1 killed can be checked; a book has been published False P26 scandal (Le faux scandale de la P26). 4 binders and about 20 files disappeared. And another files that remained in the confederacy stay confidential until 2041. So this dark side one more time allows those who are referred to as conspiracy theorists to imagine things. It's not up for discussion. So we wait until 2041, but I won't be in this planet anymore.
But there was Operation Paperclip to exfiltrate erstwhile Nazis from Germany afterWorld War II.
“In my opinion, the nonsubjective of Operation Paperclip was to exploit the technological capabilities of Nazis due to the fact that they had already V1, developed V2. The goal was to save time in the space race frame.
Okay, so you don't think NATO as an anti-communist organization could trust on Nazi help?
I'm talking military circles. As for political circles, it depends: you can imagine what you want. Politics is not my domain. I'm talking about the principle: the military are obedient and loyal by definition. That's it. So I don't think there will be declared Nazis in military circles. There are Nazis everywhere, right-wing extremists everywhere. I don't think NATO soldiers are Nazis.
But secret cells inside NATO were and possibly they are. And here I come to Dick Marty. It's besides a very delicate story, due to the fact that Marty was investigating organ trafficking in Kosovo and besides secret prison cases. Poland joined NATO in 1999, and between 2002 and 2005 it had secret prisons.
Just like Bulgaria, Romania.
People were tortured there. These were prisons opened by the CIA and coordinated by NATO. That's what Dick Marty said, who was a prosecutor and besides released a study for Europe.
“I think the large problem with Dick Marty is that he wanted to uncover things that should have been kept secret.
But how can we accept that specified things stay secret?
"I think there are people in NATO who are fundamentally pro-American, who are Euro-Atlantists. Yeah.
But this isn't about proatlanticism, this is about torture. We're talking torture. So, in fact, it denies human activity.
I don't know how to answer that.The problem with prisons, secret prisons, is that American prisoners had no legal status. If they were placed in the United States, they would gotta have legal status, and that was impossible. It wasn't wanted. But if you're pro-American, you don't say the CIA does this or that. individual who is pro-American, defends the United States to the end. I know it's shocking. I agree: this is shocking. That's why I value Switzerland's sovereignty. That's why. The large misfortune of Dick Marty is that he revealed to the public the things that should have remained a secret. And he was targeted. He was a brave man, a very brave man. Fortunately, there are inactive brave people. Like those courageous Members of the European Parliament whose names I did not want to mention. But there are, there are inactive brave people who are not allowed to be corrupt, especially the parliamentary salary.
Ukrainian conflict creators
I would like to say a fewer more words about Ukraine and about Ukraine to NATO. This is 1 of the reasons why Russia –This is not the only reason, but this is 1 of the reasons – she started this war. There are many people who claim that the events of 2014 in Majdan, events that overturn president Yanukovych, were provoked by the peculiar services and by mercenaries, especially from Blackwater. How can this be addressed?
I don't know anything about that. Although not quite: Blackwater is simply a private military company that changed its name. I'm not going into those details. For me, the war in Ukraine began in 2013. Why in 2013? due to the fact that Senator McCain was already in Kiev in 2013 and clearly said he would support Ukraine no substance what. You could not give specified speeches and say: go ahead, effort to join NATO or the European Union, and then say: no, no, nothing happened. It was 2013 and then 2014 – this is my explanation – it was a kind of anarchy. erstwhile right-wing circles, erstwhile political circles, erstwhile oligarchy circles with Piotr Poroshenko. But unfortunately, they didn't truly have a clear thought of what they wanted. That's why the Americans came to aid them find any targets. specify clear targets.
You thinkThe Ukrainians could have been instrumentalized due to the fact that the mark was Russia?
Instrumentalized by Russia?
Nope. due to the fact that the Russians keep and say it is NATO war, that they are fighting against all NATO. Is it fair to believe that the intent was to provoke a war against the Russians? due to the fact that that's what it looked like; that Russia is NATO's target.
- But I already said that. October 4, 2013 – that's when, in my opinion, it started. It was the first test.
Good.
I think it started at first as a civilian War. The Ukrainians wanted to disconnect. And then they utilized the conflicts that existed between them.
But erstwhile it's said to be Russia's target, is it truly about dismantling Russia, dividing it into tiny republics?
That was the first goal, yes. It was about her maximum weakness.
I see. I looked at the NATO 2030 agenda. Yeah, inactive year 2030. China and Russia are the main enemies there.
Of course. Who present is on the road to becoming the dominant force in the world? It's China. Then Russia. There are besides those who say North Korea, but that's due to the fact that they have an atomic bomb. But it's actual that the mark is China.
I see.
“You know, NATO always has an authoritative agenda and an unofficial agenda. You always gotta keep up with what they say. What NATO Secretary-General Mark Rutte says. That's what we call intelligence. These are any weak signals. You gotta know how to interpret them. Signals are unnoticed, but you request to know how to interpret them. So Mark Rutte said his goal was to let NATO forces to decision from west to east in 3 days. Today, to make this move, 43 days are needed. If we want to decision most NATO forces east, it'll take 43 days. He wants to cut it down to 3 days. As for Switzerland, she signed 2 projects. She joined 2 permanent structural community projects – what we call Pesco in English – namely cyber defence: Cyber Rangers. It is understandable that Switzerland will effort to defend itself from attacks on computer systems. But there's another project: Military Mobility. It is simply a question of military mobility and it is about allowing troops to transit; flight. So Switzerland wants to contribute to NATO to facilitate possible movements.
Nuclear bombs in Europe
Thank you, I am happy to talk about Switzerland, due to the fact that that was my next point. The communicative of the acquisition of F35, the only aircraft that can carry American tactical atomic weapons, is known.
Yeah, it's a B61 bomb.
Switzerland acquires these aircraft and is Agenda 2030, presented by Viola Amherd. But I have no impression that everyone in Switzerland wants to join NATO or deepen their partnership with NATO. I feel like there's been quite a few resignations in the army. Officers left due to the fact that they disagreed with political decisions. Initiatives have emerged, specified as the Compass initiative and the Neutrality initiative, As economical circles – and not only economical circles – but besides military and political circles, did not like the sanctions imposed on Russia and would like to introduce legal safeguards. Thus, the government, the national Council itself decided on certain measures. I feel like there are political divisions in the country.
“First of all, you request to know that there is simply a treaty prohibiting atomic weapons. Switzerland didn't sign it. We don't have atomic weapons in Switzerland, but the national Council has refused to sign the treaty. It is strange, but the United States has made it clear to Switzerland that they will interpret specified a signature as an unfriendly gesture. Why did this happen? This was due to the fact that the F35 is the only aircraft capable of carrying American tactical atomic bombs in Europe. So if these bombs should be relocated for strategical reasons, then the F35 countries will be called upon to transport these weapons – tactical atomic weapons. It's beautiful amazing. But I am not saying that the F35 is the only aircraft capable of transporting specified tactical atomic bombs: it is the French general, present retired, General Pinard-Legry. You can watch it on YouTube. I know General Pinard-Legry. And that's the point: we want to be able to carry this tactical atomic weapon.
And why do we want to be able to carry specified bombs?
I don't know why. possibly we'll gotta carry them in the future. If you leave a tactical atomic weapon where it is, it can be preventive. I mean a possible NATO enemy who could destruct those bombs where they are. So before the conflict, these tactical atomic bombs would most likely should be transferred, transported.
Switzerland in NATO?
A fewer words about Manifest 21 – signed by Swiss who are in favour of joining NATO.
– So Manifesto about Neutrality 21 is precisely copy-paste everything that Switzerland has done so far and possibly wants to proceed to do. There are 10 elements. 10 foundation stones. We should not aid the aggressor; as I understand; but we must facilitate transit... Arms exports are authorized; everything we have done for Ukraine or against Russia. What was done is glued in there. But more interesting is who signed the Manifesto on Neutrality 21: there is simply a erstwhile head of intelligence services, erstwhile division officer Peter Regli, a man who had all his entrances to NATO. There is Arthur Liener, commander of the corps, erstwhile Chief of General Staff. He's active with the celebrated Nyffenegger affair. Let's start at the beginning, Arthur Liener was the corps commander, chief of staff general. He decided in 1992-93 to produce CD-ROMs. He decided to put on CD-ROMs what we had at the time in secret closets that were very well secured. Unfortunately, he did not instruct how to pay attention to computer security. CD-ROMs were moved from computer to computer and copied. So all the secrets we had in these closets have spread. All the secrets I myself had in the closet as a general staff officer were on the CD-ROM. As a result, all the secrets went, no 1 knows where. Of course, since he was a large boss, he suffered no consequence as a corps commander. Colonel Nyffenegger paid the price due to the fact that he didn't pay attention to computer security. But possibly if Arthur Liener had imposed the directives as he should have, we wouldn't have that problem. But that's another story. Another individual who signed this celebrated manifesto was Kaspar Villiger, a national counsellor who practically cut our army by half. From 750,000 people we fell to about 400,000.
It's the 2000s? Are we talking about an army task ’21?
- That was before. Kaspar Villiger's reforms are the 1990s. all economist will say that this decision was an economical success due to the fact that all the people who were in the military who were leaving for 3 weeks each year returned to the economy. From this point of view, Kaspar Villiger's decision was a success. But from a safety point of view, it was a fiasco.
Neutrality in Europe
One lesson in today's war in Ukraine is that it is simply a war of exhaustion (guerre d’attrition). It takes people to do it. How could an army be reduced from about 800,000 troops to about 400,000?
That's what Kaspar Villiger did. And then there was the Army 21 project, the 1 who started doing it was Adolf Ogi. And after Adolf Ogi came Samuel Schmidt. Samuel Schmidt signed a manifesto on Neutrality 21...At the time, we had a division officer, Hans Bruckner, who clearly said that we presented our doctrine that we provided our defence plans, provided all kinds of information within the Army 21 project. We've reached NATO.
The next step is membership of the European Union?
It will be the next stage, the closest to us. Yes, this is simply a European Union membership. From a political point of view, there's a socialist party, there's a green party. Their aim is to join the European Union. Their large dream is to join the European Union. But socialist communities are besides the first to show erstwhile wages are reduced. But erstwhile they see their own wages being equalized, whether in Spain, Italy or France, I do not know if they will be very pleased. That's what it looks like. So we have a socialist organization that is very Europhile. On the another side, we have the center party, the erstwhile Christian politician party, which is Euroatlantic. You can look at Viola Amherd, you can look at Martin Pfister. All these people are Atlantists. Their goal is to join NATO.
Finland was neutral, and yes – it stopped being neutral very quickly. Kind of by the will of Sanna Marin. Could the same happen to Switzerland?
I think that would happen to Switzerland. If the opponent were close, if there was a conflict that was very close.
But isSwitzerland was not more protected by its neutrality. Finland was neutral due to the fact that Russia wanted Finland to be neutral.
- Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Russia wanted Ukraine to be neutral. And Russia made Switzerland neutral in 1815.
- Yeah. That's right.
He keeps his word: he clearly does not attack the countries he considers neutral?
But that's my opinion, too. I am inactive convinced that neutrality protects Switzerland. But if you have an opponent who's close, you want to be defended by individual more powerful than yourself. So I can realize Finland, I can realize Sweden. They reacted the way anyone would.
Militized Baltic
The Baltic Sea is highly militarized.
- Yeah.
Can you tell us something about that?
I will present my opinion on the Baltic Sea. erstwhile you perceive to all the people from NATO, all the people who are crucial to NATO – they say that the Baltic Sea is now the sea of an interior alliance due to the fact that there is no sea more militarized than the Baltic Sea. All NATO countries with naval forces are watching what is happening in the Baltic Sea. But as if they were imagining that there was a ghost ship carrying oil, carrying drones to be sent to Europe, only they did not see erstwhile those drones were sent. They say they don't know, but they can only be Russians. So is this sea truly well controlled? Is this truly the inland sea? Or are we being told lies?
So a propaganda war, a hybrid war, as it is called, against the civilian population. False flags?
- Yeah.
False information. Here again I would like to say that this is another weapon. Besides, it is said that the first victim of any war is truth.
- Yeah.
NATO is preparing for war?
Can you think that the war is in NATO's plans?
You should be crazy to have plans like that! Have you seen how many rockets France has? Have you seen the number of Russian missiles? Who wants to attack Russia but a complete madman?
So it's just an honorable threat?
I'll tell you the truth: war makes thieves. It's not my formula, but it is: war makes thieves. Seeing corruption in Ukraine, the things that are coming out now. "War makes thieves, peace hangs them."As long as we have the fear of war, we will not discuss the secret matters of this war. We're not gonna find out who put the money in whose pocket. We will not look for what happened to the money that went to Ukraine. We're not gonna discuss this and hang thieves. That's why we inactive keep a state of fear of war.
But still, erstwhile it is said that the Baltic is highly militarized and that incidents are fueled – escalation can happen very rapidly and indeed things can get out of control.
Of course, but I always hope we avoid the last-minute war. I repeat, apart from the madmen –I truly don't know who wants to go to war with Russia. It's just a substance of keeping people scared.
Tension strategy?
- Yeah.
Thank you so much for this interview.
Thank you very much.
Aleksandra Klunik-Schaller spoke
