Demonisation model

Conversation with Viktor But, a Russian entrepreneur and politician

Are you a man – a legend, especially after the American movie “Lord of Life and Death” with Nicholas Cage?

– In fact, it has very small to do with the facts, but that in the first versions of this movie at its end there was an anotation bearing my photograph, claiming that the movie is based on my biography. I guess if they turned to me, I'd aid the writers prepare a more interesting scenario. I've talked a lot about this, for example, with Africans, and they think the script is offensive to them. I besides believe that the way Africa is shown there is based on inventions. In fact, specified productions are an extrapolation of the American mentality, Hollywood. But 1 can only come up with what we erstwhile saw, what we lived and felt. What's done is done. We should all carry this cross, which is given to us, in the best way we can and as we can. At least I don't regret having this fate. There's an interesting communicative about this movie. Last year in Hollywood, it was announced that work on his sequel was beginning, but in connection with the strike taken by his writers, these works were stopped for now. Imagine that the first movie did not even let to cover the cost of its production. besides all this product on order of the Washington Party's perimeter committee. An order that the propaganda department couldn't accomplish very well.

On the another hand, the character Nicholas Cage played was not played in specified black colours.

– The movie is based only on his character. If it wasn't for Nicholas Cage, he most likely wouldn't have been noticed at all.

What about another productions? I know there's quite a few books, documentaries about you. Was 1 of them based on reliable sources?

- Yeah, there's a paper the authors received from my wife any home records. In fact, these are my home notes that I wrote myself. Often, however, everything is based on the explanation of certain texts. We're working on a documentary now and on a feature film. We're finishing the script, and there's most likely a Russian consequence to the Hollywood movie coming up soon.

Nicolas Cage in “Lord of Life and Death”

Let's hope we can besides see it in Poland. A feature movie about you would most likely be great. Will it be a kind of controversy with the movie Lord of Life and Death with Cage?

– We just want to make it interesting. Well, my destiny is most likely the essence of what's been happening in the planet over the last 30 to 40 years. Unfortunately, and possibly fortunately, my generation, like the Lord, came to live in the time of the collapse of the erstwhile system. This collapse was not due to the fact that the strategy ceased to operate, but due to treason, including the betrayal of the leadership of the Communist organization of the russian Union. We found ourselves in a vacuum where we were forced to respond rapidly and look at what was happening in the world. I would like this fresh movie to show first and foremost geopolitical processes. Washington, more specifically – globalists, decided to make me specified a boy to beat, to show everyone else to be afraid. I was the first Russian arrested in a 3rd country, although the United States had the chance at the time to address Russia straight in my case. If the Americans had presented any evidence against me, the Russian authorities would have investigated it, investigated it. And if everything was clear there, I'd be punished. In my case, however, they were incapable to present any evidence. Later, even the justice confirmed that I am a specified entrepreneur, but unfortunately, I must be sentenced to 25 years in prison. This has happened in the most "freedom" and the most "fair" country, which has always been considered a model of the regulation of law and democracy.

Why do you think your work was so dangerous?

– I don't think they think I'm specified a threat. They had another task: to test on a peculiar man how far 1 can go in his demonization. Look – the movie was shot, books were published, an image was created, a brand that invested enormously. After me, about 80 another Russians were arrested, then deported illegally and sometimes legally, to the United States, where they are now serving prison sentences. shortly the demonization of Russia began. It was based, as we all know, on fresh films based on the same script, on pressure, provocations and baseless accusations. As we know, after this demonization, there has been a hot phase of conflict, a war with Russia, which we are now witnessing.

So we can presume that your case was a kind of information ground preparation for further escalation?

– Yes, it's part of a hybrid war that unfortunately continues. In this sense, even the fact that we are talking to you here is simply a failure for them. erstwhile the Warsaw Pact fell apart, all erstwhile socialist countries were given freedom of action. They were told that they would now enjoy freedom, deficiency of restrictions. Meanwhile, they were gradually cooked like a frog – if we put it right into boiling water, it will jump out of the pot, but if we gradually increase the temperature of the water, it will yet boil. The same thing happened in Europe. We are sorry to see all this, but we inactive hope that there will be forces in Europe that put the interests of their own countries first.

I'm not going to ask for details, but how much did you actually do the arms business?

– I never denied that I was handling her transport, and in fact a large part of my transports are military equipment and weapons. Incidentally, I besides took and helped organize respective flights from Poland. They were all legitimate flights. Yes, I've known quite a few people who utilized to sale guns in those days. These were representatives of both state and private companies. I knew them, but that doesn't mean the arms trade is any kind of terrible crime. It was made into something unacceptable, and yet today, erstwhile it is carried out in Ukraine, it abruptly turns out to be a noble activity. Currently, erstwhile searching for and buying for weapons for Ukraine, it turns out that all way, even though not pure, is good. So everything depends on your point of view. If the West needs to point a finger at individual who is guilty, he is able to carry out the appropriate information preparation very professionally and intelligently.

Could you disclose more about the operations you carried out in Poland?

– It wasn't unusual. It was somewhere in 1992 or 1993, erstwhile weapons were mass-exported from Poland. Everyone remembers that at your airports there were full columns of BTR, BMP-3 and they were sent somewhere. The same was actual in Romania or Bulgaria. Also, I don't think it's possible to talk about it in breath. In those days, surplus equipment was sold out and any income was obtained. The people who dealt with this were mostly doing the right thing, due to the fact that the money from this went primarily to the state budget. And the times were heavy—between the decay of the old system, but even before the fresh strategy was formed. That's why there's no point in talking about any details. There was nothing illegal about it.

What about your relation with the Russian state? Many Western media have argued that, in fact, you have pursued an informal state policy on arms supply.

– What was the state policy of the Russian Federation in 1990? We all know that it was a policy that was simply intended to survive, a bazaar policy. Poland went through this phase much earlier, even at the end of the russian regime, erstwhile Polish citizens who had the chance to go abroad assumed 3 – 4 pairs of jeans, 5 watches each, and came to us, bought cameras, binoculars, to sale them in another countries where in turn they besides bought something and someway made money. Millions of Russian citizens were doing the same thing, someway trying to make money. someway we managed to last this time and then we managed to feed our families, waiting for the state to act. And accusing me of doing any business for you? My friends, excuse me, but now it turns out that everyone in Europe and in the United States is declaring that they are acting solely for the interests of the state. Even if I did, what right do they gotta accuse me of that? Also, I'm sorry, but these accusations sound peculiar at the moment. Who is judging me? Who's charging? After what is happening in the planet now, this kind of debate in the West sounds not only ridiculous, but mostly stupid.

Which year, erstwhile did you learn that the United States was planning to arrest you and arrest you?

– I think it was already seen somewhere in 2000. any unusual publications began to appear, and I was sanctioned. Incidentally, all these sanctions were passed on the basis of completely fabricated information. possibly the people who have handled all this should themselves be investigated separately. But what happened is what happened. Honestly, I don't truly want to see these people always again. As they say in Russia – what was past, passed. God be their judge. I do what I do now.

Don't you regret that in 2008 you decided to leave Russia and fly to Thailand?

– It looks like if you regret something for a long time, there's no energy for another things. All right, you can regret it for 3 or 4 hours. And then what – keep ripping your hair off and telling yourself that it happened? Everyone makes mistakes in their lives. For me, on the 1 hand, it was a mistake, but on the other, it was a test. What I went through was definitely a large school for me. I've learned a lot, met quite a few people. I had a very hard time, but in the end I wouldn't say I regret what happened.

Victor But

How did the Thai authorities practically agree to your extradition without any legal basis?

– In fact, Thailand's authorities refused to grant extradition. The thing is, at the time I was handed over to the Americans, the court planned 2 or 3 more sittings on this matter. The ultimate Court was inactive under consideration. This was an exceptional situation due to the fact that it was an irregularity in the appeal court which was contested and final hearings of the parties were already established on the following day. The Americans seemingly knew that the court would make a negative decision and would not wait for it. So they organized a provocation, bribed individual to hand me over to them. Formally, Thai justice has not issued a paper of consent to have extradition, so under its law it was not extradition. Incidentally, in Thailand, 10 years after these events, they were discussed in the ellipse of lawyers, lawyers and judges. It was a blow to their dignity due to the fact that they felt that as an independent state they should consider specified a substance in a proper, lawful manner. After all, not 1 justice at the first instance decided to refuse extradition, but the full judicial panel at a peculiar sitting. All its members agreed that extradition should be refused. The justice in his justification cited arguments from a precedent case that was pending before a fresh York court that later judged me. It was a case of the United States refusing an Irish militant based on the fact that the evidence against him was fabricated.

All of this must have been humiliating from the point of view of Thailand's global image.

– Unfortunately, for 20 years, global law has been being demolished in front of our eyes. Double standards and duality became the norm. Politicians can say 1 thing in 10 seconds, and after a while completely opposite, even without blinking and being ashamed of it. Unfortunately, that is the reality in which we live.

Under what conditions were you held in Thailand?

– In Thailand, these were the conditions of a typical prison there. It wasn't even a cell, but a area that had immense bars alternatively of windows, just like a door. There was 1 fan on the ceiling, and in the mediate there were 40 people and only 1 tiny toilet. This area was about 18 hours a day. We were closed immediately after dinner, at 3 pm, and we sat there until 6am, regardless of the weather, humidity or temperature. Of course, it was not easy there, but the Thai prison compared to the American prison was more human, regardless of these conditions. From each branch you could go outside, to specified a good garden with any flowers and a tiny pond where gold fishes and karans were swimming. You could besides order any meal, without any restrictions. Human and humanitarian behaviour of guards was besides in Thailand prison, which cannot always be said of American prisons.

As far as I know, your imprisonment in the United States has changed many times.

– I first went to prison in fresh York City, where there was a peculiar block for peculiarly dangerous criminals. It's a six-purpose card box where El Chapo and Medoff were at the time. all time you left the cell, you had to be held by 3 guards. Not only were they handcuffed each time, but their legs and chains were cuffed. They lead you there like a mad dog. The same is actual of food – there are no average doors that are opened and through which food is served, but a peculiar lock – first 1 door opens, then another food comes through. In general, Americans have seemingly learned a lot from the Nazis, especially erstwhile it comes to prison. As part of Operation Paperclip, about 20,000 Nazi criminals and scholars who had previously served in concentration camps have been deported to the United States. In these camps they killed Jews, russian POWs and Poles. They have tested on their victims various methods, which are now extensively utilized by the United States national Penitentiary System.

On what grounds did they keep you under specified conditions and find you peculiarly dangerous? After all, there is simply a legal basis for this.

– It's an interesting story. The papers on this subject have even been made public. The justice requested the jail manager to explain why I am being held under specified conditions, not under average rules. There was a prison manager at the sitting, a female who said I was a very dangerous man, that I could arrange an escape, kill the guards. The justice laughed and said, "He's in your prison. How can he arrange an escape and kill individual else? You're a prison, you have your procedures. What are your grounds? I don't see the basics. The prison manager replied: "We think so, we have conducted our investigation, we have interviewed and we think it is very dangerous. Eventually, the justice ordered me out of this ward, and the principal, in order not to lose her face, transferred me to another prison, not in Manhattan, but in Brooklyn.

Were the conditions better there?

– This time, they put me in a intellectual ward where I spent a fewer months before they yet transferred me to the prison where I did the remainder of my sentence.

How did you accept the judgement of the court in which you first heard that you were facing 25 years imprisonment?

– There are 2 aspects here. On the 1 hand, the prosecution applied for a life sentence. On the another hand, no facts were cited confirming the version of the accusation. However, it was already clear at that point that the conviction would be clearly beneficial for the prosecution. The only question was whether they would convict me for 30 years, for life or 25 years. Therefore, under the circumstances, 25 years was possibly small, but inactive a victory. Yes, it was hard to realize that you were facing 25 years in prison in total, but there is always specified stubbornness in Russian character, as in Polish. In specified hard situations, we do not give up, but we tighten our fists and tell ourselves that we will see how things will be.

Soon you had to organize your life behind bars. You took care, among others, of the art and learning of abroad languages.

– Yes, I decided that since I can't change my surroundings, I must at least usage them, usage this time as much as possible. That's why from the very beginning, even before the trial, I asked my lawyers to bring me different textbooks. I spent most of my time learning what I could and was curious in. I've read a lot. At 1 point I got to 1 book a day. All my time in prison, according to my notes, I read over 6,000 books that were sent to me by different friends, friends, family, wife. They were books in different languages. I besides learned to draw. Thank God, you gotta admit that in American prisons you could officially buy everything and take care of it. There was even specified a peculiar drawing room, available to me during the period erstwhile I briefly stayed under conditions of utmost security.

And what did your relation with your household look like?

– You know, that was the problem. I spoke to my wife immediately after the trial, which was in 2012, and they were not granted visas until 2019. All this time, they're not long gone with visas. As we know, it was at that time that the top deterioration of the relation occurred, that the fight against diplomats began, which, by the way, has continued so far. Of course, this was not conducive to dealing with even specified humanitarian issues. At the time, it became virtually impossible to get a visa. My wife and daughter waited almost 3 years for her release.

But you had net contact and telephone contact?

Not on the Internet. It was possible to send electronic messages through a peculiar server and receive answers to them, but all this was under strict control. You could make telephone calls, but you had to enter the mark number on a peculiar list first. You couldn't call any another numbers. You should have signed up for the telephone 2 weeks in advance. You could talk erstwhile a week or once all 2 weeks for 10-15 minutes. It wasn't that easy either.

Today we know that everything ended well. But how do you measure all these attempts by the Russian authorities over the years to replace you or simply release you?

– I most likely don't really know about all the rehearsals, and possibly that's a good thing. I can imagine how hard they must have been. The biggest problem in administration Obama was that you didn't know who to talk to. We know that with Obama's administration, our full relation began to decision to the level of open confrontation. They were very hard to talk to, especially erstwhile the Secretary of State was Mrs Clinton. That is why I understood that although I would like to go home as shortly as possible, the diplomatic task in this substance is very difficult, and the embassy has done everything possible to aid me. First, they tried to visit me very often. I always had the chance to contact them, and they could call me, too. They gave me Russian newspapers, magazines, and I could learn from them what was happening in Russia. If I only listened to American radio and watched American tv channels, I wouldn't know much about what's going on in the world. You can only hear what's going on in baseball, in American football, what the problems of any number are, but I don't think you'll learn about the real world.

So we can say that the Russian authorities are following the regulation that they don't leave theirs in poverty?

"Yes, in this area I am pleased that this is the subject of systematic work and in all case the Ministry of abroad Affairs, NGOs, human rights defenders respond. It is so hoped that we will be able to combat the practice of keeping Russian citizens under imaginary accusations. In fact, it is like piracy, where people are kidnapped for ransom. Like the pirates in the Mediterranean who stopped the ship, they kidnapped all of them to receive ransom or to sale them into captivity. You could say that America inherited these not-so-best pirate traits.

You could say he's kidnapping people as hostages.

- Yeah. At the same time, he accuses everyone else of taking hostages. After all, we know what kind of sound is raised all time an American citizen is detained somewhere. And if this happens in Russia, it's a disaster.

Thank you for talking to me.

Matthew Piskorski spoke

The full interview in the video version available on YouTube channel Against Censur.

Wiktor But (born 1967 in Dushanbe) is simply a Russian weapon transport entrepreneur, the first character of the movie Lord of Life and Death with Nicholes Cage in the lead role. The detainee orders Americans in Thailand in 2008, then sentenced by a fresh York court to 25 years in prison. As part of the prisoner exchange, he returned to Russia in 2022.

Think Poland, No. 35-36 (31.08-7.09.2025)

Photo: wikipedia, imdb.com