Michał Sutowski: Stolen Pride this is your next book dedicated to Trump's bastion and Republicans – this time it is simply a mining region in the east of Kentucky State in Appalachian, dominated by whites and very poor. erstwhile did the economical collapse of this place begin?
Arlie Russel Hochschild: The decline had 2 phases, first gradual and then very violent. This gradual 1 began after 1945. During both planet wars the state of Kentucky was the main hub for extracting the most crucial energy origin at the time, or hard coal. Later, his function gradually declined until the 1990s, erstwhile a violent and irreversible breakdown occurred.
Was it geology or politics?
Both. The main reason was the depletion of the highest quality coal – in Pike County, which I studied, it was mined until the 1980s, then fed a small worse, and present only the worst sorts were left. This was achieved by the second factor, about 15-16 years ago, namely the shale revolution – natural gas has just become cheaper and people began to control to this origin of heat and energy. Finally, the 3rd thing on which the right focuses only: erstwhile Barack Obama announced "greening America" and support for clean energy, The Environmental Protection Agency introduced regulations that required mines to install air cleaning equipment, which evidently increased costs.
And that's how Obama killed coal?
This is the narration of Republicans that regulations de facto prevented economical production, although shale gas – supported by them very powerfully – had already begun to displace this coal. So there were a fewer reasons for coal problems in Kentucky. But we must besides consider a more general mechanism, which is behind the problems of many akin “red states”. Where education was little co-financed, residents as workers were more susceptible to accidents at work, and life expectancy – thanks, inter alia, to environmental conditions – was lower, investment outflows abroad, the automation of production and the weakening of trade unions caused even more harm to the income and wellness of citizens than in the "blue" states, more urbanised with large city centres, a diversified economy.
And the region you described was 1 of those small different? Where was almost everything else dependent on the destiny of the coal industry?
Yes, and it is interesting that coal extraction was falling during Trump's first term, in 2016–20, but it began to grow after Biden's triumph – in the context of the energy crisis associated with the war in Ukraine erstwhile they went up gas prices. And so, as the president's rule, who considers climate change to be any kind of gag or leftist conspiracy, coal did not pay off, and as "green" Biden did. The people of Kentucky might have concluded that the Democrats are not their enemies, but yet they did not...
Maybe due to the fact that the Democrats, however, supported the improvement of green energy. What does Kentucky have in it?
That's a lot, due to the fact that although voters vote for Republicans, the politician was elected politician Andy Beshear, who brings many fresh jobs to the north and west of the state. If you live in the Appalachian, but get in the car, you will arrive in 3 hours at the mill of photovoltaic panels built by means of Biden's administration. Of course, you gotta move, due to the fact that it is besides far for regular commutes, but good jobs in this region have come closer than always – thanks to any of the billions of dollars that it foresees Inflation simplification Act from the erstwhile president. Let us add that out of these billions, about 85 percent went to the “red” states, or Republican states. Trump is trying to halt this influx of resources due to the fact that he doesn't believe in renewable energy sources...
But I don't think his constituents believe either.
It's not like that. Right-wing voters want green jobs; this does not conflict with “red”, in the Republican sense, politics. As we look at the results of public opinion surveys, in 2019 it was not only the vast majority of democrats, but besides the majority – although tiny – of Republicans who agreed that the government should spend more resources on RES. Moreover, in a fresh survey of More in Common, not only 93% of democrats, but besides 73% of Republicans agreed that "US should be a planet leader in the improvement of clean energy". erstwhile I spoke to the people of Kentucky myself, almost everyone – apart from straight related to the coal manufacture – felt that the government should do something about cleaning drinking water from coal mud and looking favourably at alternate sources of energy.
But Republicans don't believe in man-made climate change.
Of course, if you ask them whether the current state of the Earth's atmosphere is contributing to the warming of the planet and if it has anything to do with coal burning, most will not answer yes – due to the fact that a number works in the coal industry, but most Republicans simply do not accept it. Most agree, however, that funds for energy transformation are needed, this raises any hope as a cross-party subject – in this case Trump is just right from his own voters.
I would return to these fresh green jobs. In Europe, it is frequently the case that for erstwhile miners work is even, but alternatively highly paid, secured by law and trade unions, rather prestigious in these regions and social classes, is turned into any one-man economical activity at half the rate. but in the open air, not a mile underground. In order for a man to be able to change his job, he must get anything attractive... So what are these jobs in this northern Kentucky?
If you become an installer of solar panels, you can gain about $70,000 a year – up to a 100 1000 that the miner made, much is missing, but the household can be maintained for that. If you're working night shifts at the battery factory, those 3 hours distant from Pikeville, you can get about 90 grand, with overtime, you'll most likely hit 100. In another words, these are not simple jobs in services, in the dishwasher or in the shop. The kind that conservatives attribute to women as extra earnings – that is the average wage of a householder, due to the fact that this category matters to them.
So if jobs are decent and Biden gave money to make them happen – why did this Trump get nearly twice as many votes as Vice president Biden there?
Mitch Landry, the erstwhile mayor of fresh Orleans, called me once, and Biden anointed me with an infrastructure car to distribute these funds from the IRA to the red states. large guy, notabene, I'd like him to be president someday. But he told me something like this: can you aid me due to the fact that I was bringing any truly good economical news to these states and... I didn't feel like I was being listened to. And on the another hand, I heard Joe Biden has a visual problem: where is he? We don't hear of him. We hear something about money, but his face doesn't truly ringing a bell.
But it doesn't seem acquainted because...?
If individual asks why economical change for the better does not make people grateful to Biden, then the answer is rather simple in the case of the IRA. First, the Democratic organization has put quite a few money into advertising online, but much little in contacts and direct conversations, face to face. Republicans have appeared much more personally in these communities, and more conventional people like to see who they're dealing with, that's once.
That means communication errors. But that's not all?
The second origin is that people frequently did not see this money. They were granted, but they were flowing very slowly, almost breaking through the device of the Environmental Protection Agency and local authorities. It wasn't like Obama said, shovel-ready jobs. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . In another words, many of these ventures could be heard, but by the time they began materializing, they were not peculiarly trusted to rise. To sum up: the culture of communication, but besides the time perspective, worked against democrats.
Speaking of communication: your investigation is based primarily on talks with the inhabitants of the region under investigation. What meetings with the Appalachian people looked like against the background of the erstwhile experience, that is, working in Louisiana while working on Aliens in their own country? What is the difference between these people – apart from the fact that they were supporters of the Tea Party, and of course they support Trump?
In Louisiana, the culture of hospitality is much stronger in the South – you are not from here, but a certain kindness applies. Kentucky is much more privacy-oriented, so making real contact with people is simply a much bigger feat. Speaking to a young man from there, I suggested that we take a walk on the road that ran 1 of those valleys between the hills. And he says, you know, it's not a good idea, people in these cabins and trailer parks aren't gonna be happy that individual who's not here, they're gonna think you're individual from the authorities, and they're doing all kinds of things, dealing drugs... In another words, the culture of distrust is much deeper rooted there.
And there was the pandemic factor: while I was working on Aliens...I could spend quite a few time with these people, live with them, eat together, visit their loved ones' graves and crucial places for them. Here the field work was less, and more conversations were held by Zoom – they may have been psychologically deepened, but I could not see with my own eyes what their surroundings looked like.
In the book, you compose about the pride paradox. Trump voters, specified as Kentucky, are people whose chances of surviving – to gain education, attractive work, but besides healthy surviving conditions – are, to put it mildly, limited. At the same time, they are close to the thought that man himself is the smith of his own fate, in a unitary sense. If he wins, it's his credit and reason to be proud, how he loses – his wine and the origin of shame. At the same time, you compose that people with progressive or liberal views, in the American sense, more frequently admit the influence of the environment on our success or failure, although they are frequently better placed. It's counterintuitive, isn't it? Psychologically speaking, it is those with a better social position who should proclaim that all thanks to them and those with a worse 1 – that it is the responsibility of the system.
That's why I'm talking about the paradox. Although it is not hard to explain it – access to higher education is simply a key origin and differences within the US are colossal. In the region that I studied, only 16% of the adult population has a bachelor's degree, in fresh York City vice versa – over 61%, and there are places where it is up to 3/4! In places where the occupation offer is much more varied, people had more chance to study, and there to read something about cultural capital, but besides to meet people from different social classes, although not necessarily surviving next to them. The strength of specified conditions is to realize that it is “complex” why individual is successful and not.
And was Kentucky always culturally conservative? Is this a new, "reactive" phenomenon?
This place has been rather conventional for generations. 1 of my interviewers erstwhile quoted Mark Twain: “Kentucky is 20 years behind the remainder of the world. So erstwhile the end of the planet comes, I want to be in Kentucky.” He added, possibly not entirely according to his intention, that "It may seem that erstwhile it comes to the number of children in the household and the level of public colleges, we are behind another regions, but behind it does not always mean worse", in the sense that the planet is going in the incorrect direction, so possibly it is better that we are "retreated".
Anyway, the people who came from Europe were immigrants from Scotland and England, alternatively from the poor. It was even said that it was a lumpenproletariat, collected from the street and packed for ships to send it to America while it was open enough. They hit these mountains with coal deposits and, although poor, proved to be very resilient and efficient in their profession. Unlike others, they didn't go further west, Oklahoma or California, they just stayed in the Appalachian, so besides the communicative got a small over their heads.
But workers from there for another generation voted for Democrats – and for a long time, not like in the South, which turned distant from this organization after president Johnson in the mid-1960s supported the civilian Rights movement and the civilian Rights Act and the right to vote...
In fact, they were democrats about until Clinton's second term, as long as they were held by the trade union party. They besides held workers of various origins together, for in the times of both planet wars there were people of more than 20 nationalities speaking different languages in the region. It was a conscious business policy, due to the fact that it was to make it harder for them to organize themselves – they were to talk Italian, Polish, German, and white and black, Catholics and Protestants to weaken the union.
Which yet happened.
But much later, due to the fact that in the late 20th century. Previously, for decades, various people from different places of the planet had just the fact that alongside Jesus they had portraits of John L. Lewis on their home altar, for 4 decades leader relation United Mine Workers of America. Here is simply a curious fact: the concept redneck It means present the stereotype of a man from the province, a small simple, who must surely be a racist. And in the times of union power, this word was associated not with red from working on the field with the neck, but with a red scarf of a unionist around the neck, which symbolized that man is not a scab and that black and white are laborer brothers.
So we have people who, for generations, have felt pride in their work, which allowed them to keep their families, out of common solidarity, out of the fact that their own efforts gave fuel to the American economical and military power. And they lose it all due to the fact that they fall under their feet – that is, the manufacture in which their families, especially men, worked for generations. And due to the fact that the story of the blacksmith of his own destiny was inactive very strong there – they feel ashamed due to the fact that they lost it all? Like it was their fault? Is that the basis for their views, their sympathy for Trump?
They're ashamed that they don't fit into the American dream, that they're blocked. due to the fact that their way of life is now a cascade down the social ladder. First they lose their jobs, and with them, they contact the community around them. They have no colleagues, and that they have little money, because, for example, they work casually, which they are ashamed of, they will not go to a organization with friends, so they gradually retreat from social life. They utilized to be able to meet regularly, even in a bar or fishing, but in time less and less people appear in this bar – besides due to the fact that many colleagues, if they can, leave for another cities. Finally, this bar or club closes, and there's a inexpensive small store and a gas station nearby.
It's a desert.
Yeah, they start surviving in a place that's socially stripped of everything, schools shut down, too. Then divorces are very common, relationships break up. They live in any kind of a place, they keep in contact with people online. And they get into drugs due to the fact that any of their friends got into it earlier, any of them start dealing due to the fact that they gotta finance addiction from something – and that's already a terrible shame...
And drugs in today's U.S. is most likely not what in the 1980s movies: gangs of young African-Americans and Hispanics stuff people with crack. It's the doctors who prescribe...
Of course, the state of Kentucky, as well as West Virginia, are the places where the most opioid analgesics were prescribed – as a rule: do you have a problem, hurt something? There you go, there's Oxycodone, very effective, it'll take care of everything, no, God forbid, it's not addictive. The pharmacist at the pharmacy confirms: take it, don't worry. So, yeah, it's not the gangs of guys in hoodie hoodies that sale stuff to people, it's the people in white collars. Manufacturer of these medicines, Purdue Pharma, concealing their addictive character, it was the 2 states that chose the target.
Why these? due to the fact that in Kentucky, quite a few people endure from occupational diseases?
That too, so there is no shortage of patients seeking relief at all costs and deprived of access to average treatment. But there was something else: these are states ruled by Republicans, and so with weakened regulations. My investigation assistant compiled solutions for this book in different states with addiction rates: they were twice as low in states where regulations are stronger. What makes a difference is the rule of 2 or 3 entities who receive an appropriate receipt erstwhile selling addictive drugs. In states like Illinois or California, alongside a maker and a pharmacy, the government's surveillance agency receives information about this. In Kentucky and West Virginia, the thing stays with the maker and seller, curious mainly in expanding sales. It is not a coincidence that Purdue Pharma sent respective twelve salesmen there, specifically to the mining regions.
So we have an economic, social, wellness and environmental disaster laboratory there...
Yes, water from the tap can't be drank there, everyone uses bottled water.
...In a state ruled by Republicans. In which, let's add, there are actually no immigrants from Latin America or elsewhere...
They're almost gone, due to the fact that why would they bring them there if there's no job? Migrants are alternatively the people of Kentucky, those bravest and most resourceful who pack things on a truck and road 23 follow to Cincinnati and another industrial cities of the Midwest. These are migrants there, i.e. those who leave Kentucky: Appalachians do not see migrants, they hear another Trump tirade about them. That they are to hatred them – due to the fact that you are good people, those here, and those are evil.
After all, those migrants from Central America or Mexico, who, of course, go to another regions of the country, are in a very akin situation to white workers born on the ground without work: they want a better life and do not have access to it. Only the migrant is blocked by the deficiency of an American passport, and the American individual who comes from here and grew up here – the deficiency of a bachelor's degree. The Appalachian people are in the same situation at national level as the Mexicans on the global labour market. In another words, this is Trump's large accomplishment that prompts the erstwhile to hatred the latter.
He besides makes people hatred transgenders and the remainder of the LGBTQ community. And besides, the full left. Although the LGBTQ community of course in Kentucky is, but not peculiarly revealed with its identity, and the left from Black Lives substance and protests against the bombing of Gaza is impracticably present, due to the fact that the college there besides has small to do with East Coast campuses. So all the most crucial scapegoats of the present administration in this Republican bastion do not occur...
Which shows that it is about culture, not just about the economy. It's about making up, actually making up reality. Trump got a small bit like large Brother. Due to the unpredictability of his decisions, we check all day, what will he do today? And he's just repeating, like a machine, messages about immigrants, gays and lesbians that poison wells, destruct household and all of America.
But I don't think he'd go that far just to hatred it. What are those voters who do not have advanced incomes and social position – due to the fact that he does not deficiency specified ones – to be proud? If they're alternatively embarrassed not to deliver, can't they? Is it just that he at least points out that they exist?
He's done specified an anti-hams ritual, that's truly the point of his message. due to the fact that as I said – economics, the economy matters: we rise customs, the companies will return to the US, America will be large again. But specified a charismatic figure like Trump has first of all its emotional policy, written into respective stages. At first, he refers to recognition, respect: I know how you feel. You were proud, but your pride was stolen. individual stole it from you, and I'll get it back for you. He doesn't say anything like that, but everyone knows what he means. They are innocent – they are you whom I love – and any thieves of your pride and dignity, whom I hate! erstwhile you hear this day and day, you start to free yourself from a sense of shame – and in specified an emotional economy, it is an awful lot.
I get it, I inactive don't have the money or access to the doctor, but I already know it's not my responsibility and I don't should be ashamed of myself?
As part of the economy of pride you are already much richer. This makes it very easy to identify – you don't have real property in Manhattan, but you can buy a key chain or a Christmas tree bomb with Trump as Santa Claus, or a car sticker, it's like a club entrance card for those who aren't ashamed.
But why does it work? Why is he reliable?
And that's where the anti-inhamment ritual comes in, and that's where charisma and a sense of voter ties to their president. simply put, he first says something that has a loose connection to reality, or just makes it up, but what fits into this communicative of stolen pride. They could be Central American immigrants feeding on decent American home animals.
I mean, that's bullshit. He's expected to dehumanize these people.
Yeah, but he does something else. due to the fact that liberals, left, democrats, as he called it, respond to this: he's crazy, what nonsense, it's disgusting, you should be a moron to believe it. And, in a nutshell, at this point, they turn off the tv or, rather, they halt looking at the screen due to the fact that everything is clear.
Racist, misogyn...
Exactly – we have criticism from moral positions or simply referring to confusion of senses. But Trump's way of telling people what he wanted them to think. due to the fact that erstwhile everyone comes at him, he turns his head around and says, "You see? They keep attacking me, there's nothing to say. You know how I feel about that? You know, due to the fact that they treat you the same way, they call you racists, beets... But let me tell you something: I'm not going to be embarrassed. I will punch them, I will retaliate—for mine and your harm.
You mean the savior?
Frees him from shame, turns him into pride and a origin of strength. He repeats this day by day, filling the cultural and social void that occurred long before him, but the Democrats did not see it. As long as social tissue in these environments was formed by trade unions, there was besides a left, but since they disappeared, the Democrats have lost contact with these people.
But is it – like in the right-wing movie – that the left actually despises the people, not curious in the economy, but exploring the depths of its increasingly transcendent identities and would like people to vanish from the planet Earth, what would be better for frogs? It's not like that. How do Democrats or Left make a bubble?
When we look at the right, we feel that they are very out of time, like from another era, etc. But the exact same thing can be said about us, although of course it is not. On the left side, separation from the remainder of society does not should be due to deficiency of empathy or unwillingness to go out of their own backyard. possibly we even care more frequently than right-wing people in tiny towns – we want to learn about fresh cultures, aid people who have worse. We simply have different maps of empathy – the right thinks more in local terms, and we more frequently cosmopolitanally. At the same time – this is our paradox, not theirs – we live in more homogenous environments.
What do you mean? I hatred latte coffee, whether it's soy or not. But I like pork chops. I shouldn't have. I drink match, but cold and on the water.
People close to the Democratic organization are more likely to live in homogenous areas, i.e. in large cities alongside akin ones: equally educated. They do not think that man should live with only specified as himself or herself – but more frequently than right-wing people live in specified conditions. In another words, they are convinced that it is of large value to go out in front of another, but those others close have few. Or alternatively "other" in another respects – due to the fact that the settlements of the educated, large-town mediate class can be rather diverse in terms of race, place of origin, colour of skin, or professional specialization, but they are classly homogenous. In our Berkeley, as you walk down the street, you'll hear people talking in a coffee store or on the telephone in Chinese, nipponese or German, but most will have a PhD.
I fishy that many intellectuals close to democrats cannot afford to live in these natural circumstances. But I realize that the spatial segregation of voters is simply a fact, and the progressive mediate class, even if they don't live in specified settlements, would at least wish. But the question remains: what should we do in specified a situation?
I feel like I'm writing something in my book that we should have known 30 years ago. Like it's the cognition the left is just making up for. due to the fact that we're not following. We have this stereotype that they're any kind of backward, that they're in the erstwhile era. any are most likely stuck, but the same applies to us in our large-town, educated bubble. We stayed behind, if we had to catch up. And the bubble effect someway makes us look like those we look at from above.
And if we took this diagnosis – what could work? Where's the prescription?
I can think of a fewer strategies. Apart from defending existing democratic institutions, universities, schools, independent media, the judiciary – you request a counter-narration and a leader willing to proclaim it: no, no 1 has stolen your pride. You've lost her, we see it, but as Americans, we request to work things out so that we can all feel pride in our country. specified a candidate may be Gavin Newsom, the politician of California – he is not without faults, but I think he would have raised specified a challenge. Just due to the fact that he can handle Trump. He can mock him, pararode him, not just moralize and mock his constituents. For example, I am the handsomest politician in America! Or he starts writing tweets in capital letters – until Trump himself stopped doing it.
Is the humor enough?
I'm certain it'll help. We besides request different stories and methods of communication that affect emotions below the word level – specified images as from protests against the starving of Gaza, where thousands of people come with empty pots or pans make more impression than the best slogans. This giant $440 million plane Trump got from the Saudis until he was asked for any artistic happening – a model or a balloon to drive around the country.
But rhetoric's not enough.
Of course, Democrats must work to regain the simple trust of those voters who erstwhile voted for them. I see any swallows: Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, who reports ideas of combating an outbreak of loneliness. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who travels around the country and can kidnap audiences in specified "red" states as Idaho. Or Andy Beshear, the politician of Kentucky, who crosses the divisions between urban and agrarian voters. At the same time, alongside the leaders, we request a greater bottom-up movement that would build bridges between people in matters that are suprapartisan. We have already talked about clean energy, but there is, for example, the issue of dealing with natural disasters. Even if a individual does not believe in anthropogenic climate change, he will not be protected from catastrophic flooding or a trumpet.
It would take God's will, or it would be punishment for sodomy...
Not if he gets a chance to work together on this. I know the communicative of a man who started by informing himself about the weather, storms or tornadoes in the area and gained large confidence. Then he began organizing the alleged Y’all Squad, a group coordinating the actions of volunteers fighting the consequences of specified crises. Under conditions where Trump's administration cuts the public service posts and resources that should be covered, Democrats should fight for backing for specified local initiatives. As well as theatre clubs, music workshops, local conservation associations... To make people see that they request them for something. And they helped recreate local social tissue in towns like Pikeville, which I studied. due to the fact that it's hard for anything another than Trumpism to grow in the social desert.
**
Arlie Russell Hochschild – an outstanding American sociologist, retired prof. at the University of California, Berkeley. The author of 9 books, any of which were regularly included in the list of the best books of the year "New York Times". Translated into sixteen languages. In 2017, she appeared in the Publishing home of Political Critics Aliens in their own country, whose second edition goes on sale with the premiere of the Polish translation of the latest book Hochschild – Stolen pride. Loss, shame and triumph of the right.
