Konrad Rękas in an interview with David Folch, Secretary General of Solidaritat Catalana per la Independència for the channel Against Censur/Without Censorship.
Konrad Handes: The planet remembers smaller historical nations fighting for independence, like the Catalans and Scots, during elections and large events. But of course we all know that their case remains alive. After 12 May, after announcing the results of the elections to the Catalan Regional Assembly, the news featured large titles: "It's the end of the dream! The independency movement is over! A large defeat!”
Real results may not be so dramatic. Carles Puigdemont and his centre-right Junts per Catalunya recorded even a slight increase, while the centre-left Esquerra Republicana lost more than a 3rd of her mandates, and the left-wing Candidature d’Unitat Popular would have half as many MPs as it had so far. Do you think this was indeed a failure of the independency movement, or have we observed only the effects of the mistakes made by its leaders?
David Folch: It's very hard to answer this question quickly, but I'll do my best. Firstly, it is actual that the results of the elections are not beneficial for independence, but from another point of view, at our worst moment, which is now – we inactive hold 40% support for independence, after years of repression, disappointment, fatigue. We don't know what else might happen, but assuming this is our hardest minute since 2017. – 40 percent is not the worst consequence in regional elections. I would like to emphasise that regional elections and the independency referendum are not the same. The state and the Spanish parties have always reiterated that results in regional elections are not applicable to the designation of Catalan independence. Of course, this was preached erstwhile pro-independence parties won both the votes and seats in the Assembly. But erstwhile they lost the majority – they announce that the independency movement died. And that's not true.
A preliminary analysis by most independent centres shows that most supporters of independency did not vote. The explanation seems simple. It was a kind of abstaining, in a situation where inactive the same leaders who inactive did not lead us to independence. They immediately went to abstain due to the fact that the same leaders who did not lead us to independency again came for support. People said that erstwhile they could not vote for Spanish parties and not want to support those who failed, it was better to stay home. specified analysis can be very crucial for the future.
KR: erstwhile I live in Scotland, I observe how badly she is doing about independency her excessive connection to the interests of 1 party. Voters naturally measure the party's policies, including its another objectives and actions than only pro-independence, and this then translates into receiving current support for the case. In February 2024, your Catalan Solidarity offered to reconstruct the right to vote on independency to the citizens of Catalonia. It was an initiative of re-voting universally, beyond political divisions. The main parties sceptically followed this initiative, although at any phase they were forced to support it. Why do you think that would be a better way to accomplish independency than parliamentary?
DF: Of course it's not a better way. There's a saying in English that if life gives you lemons, you make lemonade. We are presently outside Parliament, so we cannot take parliamentary initiatives. In this case, however, we have done everything we can with a fewer objectives. 1 of them was an effort to overcome this sadness, this disappointment, this fatigue of people and the belief that politicians are fighting only among themselves, not for independence. We have so attempted to present our bill, the same as in 2011, erstwhile it was not adopted. We went back to her to show that there was a social movement wider than the party.
You mentioned that identifying independency with 1 organization is simply a bad strategy. In the case of Catalonia, many parties are active in the matter, but the Spanish State utilized to combine the slogan of independency with only any of them, with any leaders, to then focus on destroying them. And that's what's happening now. They destruct the movement, focusing on those of our leaders who have failed, recalling cases of corruption years ago, accusing of ties to Russia, utilizing all tool at hand. If you manage to make the impression that the full independency movement is identical to 1 organization or 1 policy – the easier it is to compromise them. This is what we are opposed to with our universal vote initiative, showing that there is life outside the parties. A life that didn't stand still, and it surely didn't die. At the time of rehearsal, we inactive have 40 percent. So let's continue!
KR: I realize that the assumptions of the next initiative you supported were similar. Before the elections, Solidarity proposed civic lists, i.e. going to elections with a stronger bottom-up movement, going beyond the old leaders and their organization interests. However, the main parties chose particularism...
DF: I want to pay attention to something very important. We didn't initiate the civilian letter initiative. It was a task by another non-governmental organization, as L’Assemblea Nacional Catalana, which represents the highest standards in terms of territorial coverage and professionalism of its members. They're professionals. No uncertainty they could and should get into parliament. So erstwhile we heard about their project, we decided to support it, besides from the outside. Unfortunately, the action failed because, in general, the organization machines acted consistently against him, they besides sabotaged him from the inside, making certain that the bottom-up movements did not emergence besides high. It was a sad surprise for all the forces active who, like us, had no time to organize an alternative.
KR: So let us halt at the situation in L’Assemblea Nacional Catalana. The events took place there, Lluís Llach was elected as the president of the organization after a longer path. I do not know if the fact is known in Catalonia, but in the 1980s and early 1990s “L’estaca” his author was the most celebrated political song in Poland...
DF: In Poland? I never would have thought!
KR: Yes, in Poland. Bard “Solidarity”, Jacek Kaczmarski translated it as “Mury” and was highly popular. So, of course, we know Lluís Llach, his work and his heroic résumé. But now there are voices that his choice is part of another organization game by Carles Puigdemont and his Junts per Catalunya. Do you agree that it is simply a trick of the Vichy regime, as sometimes not only in the Spanish media was called the Puigdemont's emigration centre, or the choice of Llach is simply a proof of the natural respect it is given?
DF: First of all, I want to express my deep respect for Lluís Llach, his artistic, social and political path. I'd like to be very precise not to offend anyone. His election was a sovereign decision of the members of the Assembly. However, I believe that there are different trends in this organisation. 1 is found perfectly in the current organization system, which (as we have agreed) is alternatively an obstacle to independence. We besides have a current whose failure was the final rejection of the draft civilian letter. Finally, there is the tradition of the National Assembly of Catalonia, according to which its objectives are to mobilize, co-organise mass speeches, always democratically and peacefully, BUT always hand in hand with historical independency parties. In the past, this mechanics has functioned smoothly. We cannot be ashamed of anything that has been accomplished by 2017. All the actions, demonstrations, all our struggle, ideas and ideas were implemented correctly. This is 1 way to regain independence: people on the streets, peace, speaking out about independency and unity. Things were going in the right direction, possibly besides well for organization leaders. Everything worked out as best as possible until the 1st and then until October 10, 2017, erstwhile our declaration of independency collapsed. It is so not a bad thought for L’Assemblea to resume national mobilization by changing its policies.
However, we are already at a different historical point, while we have a return to the past erstwhile Lluís Llach encouraged the vote on Junts per Catalunya. This organization is not to be criticized, while its leaders have failed us all these years after 2017. I do not know, I do not want to personally justice why they did so, whether their fear was so large or the force on Europe. I don't realize why, at the last possible moment, millions of people went out on the street on October 3, 2017, did not declare independence. It will stay a mystery that we may someday know.
All we know for now is that they failed. They failed to regain our independence. And now they're pushing Lluís Llach, and he's trying to return to that past. I don't know if he's gonna make it, I'm a associate of the Catalan National Assembly myself, I'm giving us the usual 100 days and I don't want to criticize from the beginning. Let's see what happens. But if he wants unity, yes, there is simply a concept (I apologize for specified a long answer) that the main parties have always said: "We must keep unity, we must strive for unity...It’s okay. ” Unity is very important, but more crucial is why should this unity serve? If unity does not service independence, it has no political meaning.
I am so afraid that Lluís Llach will be the president of specified a return to the past. And I don't think it's going to work, but that was the decision of the members of the assembly that I full respect.
KR: Past, present and future in 1 game. As we know, the amnesty has just entered into force against people terrorized by the Spanish government and Guardia civilian after the 2017 referendum and all independency actions. This was 1 of the conditions for Junts+ and the ERC to support the social democratic government in the Spanish parliament. Do you think they can now go freely, free from these obligations? What can change in Spanish and Catalan politics? Or possibly amnesty is just another method of Madrid's influence on Junts+ and ERC besides in Barcelona, for example to gain support for the regional Social politician government?
DF: A very, very, very hard subject. Amnesty is simply a peculiarly crucial issue due to the fact that there are people who are inactive victims of the repression of Spanish judicial power. I don't want anything like that for anyone. I don't want this constant force whose sole intent is to spread fear. Fear works perfectly erstwhile the state uses it to choke any movement. We saw it in Hong Kong. We've seen it in all dictatorship. Fear works perfectly and is simply a natural reaction to repression, unilateral acts of injustice. It would concern everyone, not only leaders, but besides people who pushed individual the same stature in a conflict during the demonstration and now service 3 years in prison, without any charges, simply an arbitrary decision by the authorities. This is what creates an atmosphere of fear and in specified cases amnesty is absolutely necessary.
I don't want to say what amnesty will be utilized for. I want amnesty for all the independents. However, the main problem is the price paid for this amnesty. It is rather simple: what is the price of this act of grace? I think it is now clear to anyone who can rationally think about this situation. It is clear that both Esquerra Republicana (ERC) and Junts per Catalunya renounced the right to unilateral independency at once. So now they propose: "OK, we're in favour of independence, but we won't make a unilateral declaration of independence. We will negociate a fresh referendumBut no 1 in the independency movement knows when, or under what conditions, nobody seems to care. So what are we talking about?
In 2017, we held a referendum. According to standards, this was a correct and acceptable referendum with a very clear result. And then there was the Spanish police. 7 1000 officers came here only to ban a referendum, only to beat people, older, younger, etc., only for putting a card in the ballot box, not for destroying private or public property, but only to make the vote difficult. That is why we must fight for independency with the results of the referendum on this matter. Meanwhile, there's a refund, a consent to amnesty. Of course it's something. Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez And the Spanish state is not stupid. What we must avoid at all costs is reasoning that the Spanish Government or the Spanish State is stupid. They've ruled us for the last 3 centuries. They're not stupid. They have power, they have strength, they have the army and they have justice. So if they agree to trade, this amnesty is about something else. And the another thing is simply one-sided independence.
And a unilateral declaration of independency is everything! You say you will regain your independency no substance what the cost. Not that your independency will be agreed with the occupier decently and that you will search it only by referendum whenever the occupier wishes to hold this referendum. The price is crucial at this point and we disagree with it. We see the suffering of our countrymen, so of course we accept amnesty. We'll be watching how it's done, whether it's being dragged for months and years. But we do not agree with the price paid for it. It does not concern us, we want independency declared unilaterally, by the Catalans themselves.
It's a good thing we have amnesty and I don't care who introduces it, but I don't feel obligated to any Junts+ and ERC deal with the Pedro Sánchez government. That's their problem, and we'll see what happens next.
KR: I can full confirm due to the fact that I was in Barcelona in 2017. I observed that the referendum was organised absolutely correctly and in accordance with all global rules. It surely expressed the actual will of the Catalan people. I have besides seen the repression and oppression of the Madrid regime. Therefore, I think that it is besides seldom recalled to the public that not only fewer leaders were hunted by Madrid, but thousands of people, average people, took part in these protests after an effort to crush the referendum, which was answered by Spanish violence. force against all, not just a fistful of leaders who rapidly fled to Brussels.
When I described the drama of Catalonia then, in 2017, alongside expressing sympathy for your origin due to evidently there was quite a few compassion in the planet for what people saw on tv screens. But some, especially my left-wing colleagues, asked me: “OK, but why are you in favour of the Catalan independency movement, since it is more bourgeois, more centre-right, unlike the typical parties of the national independency left in another unrecognized countries. You should be careful due to the fact that only a fewer wealthy people from Barcelona would like to have their own state businessIt’s okay. ” I said no, it's a folk movement and I saw it with my own eyes. This is the movement of average people, including workers, tiny owners, intelligence of various options, students, all residents. J
How do you see from the inside? Is the Catalan independency movement truly more centre-right, more bourgeois, or possibly just more diverse? There are many sides in the independency movement in Catalonia...
DF: That's a good question. The Spanish strategy of discrediting Catalan independency is, among another things, binding this thought to bourgeoisy. This is due to historical events erstwhile many Spaniards came to Catalonia for bread, in search of work, uncovering employment with locals, or Catalans. The national division was so imposed on society: the mediocre and the workers are the influx of Spaniards, employers and wealthy owners are Catalans. specified differentiation dates back to the late 19th century, and in the beginning of the last century it involves activity Alejandro Lerroux and his anti-Catholic Republican movement, called El Lerrouxismo, which curious people can read about even on Wikipedia. Spanish workers of Catalan bourgeoisie were then opposed. Of course, the image of a greedy Catalan bourgeois exploiting mediocre Spanish workers was gladly promoted by Madrid.
However, today's survey of self-identification of citizens shows that most people in Catalonia sympathize alternatively with the left. Our formation has adopted a wide organisational formula, but we are more clearly on the left. I believe that this balance between the left and the right is natural and healthy. In fact, for 40 years of alleged democracy, especially in the last 4th of the century, the Catalan centreright Convergència Democràtica Jordi Pujola gained an advantage, i.e. Catalan nationalism besides identified with right-wing sympathies. However, it is characteristic that until the last election we did not have an utmost right. Unfortunately, they have now appeared claiming that they support independence, although they focus solely on opposition to immigration. Well, we must not deviate from the general European trend, and in Europe the utmost right is clearly increasing. Many could be discussed about the causes, but the trend itself is indisputable and present in almost all countries. Catalonia is so not different, we have an utmost right-wing pro-independence party, but we besides have the independent formations of the far left, 2 centroleft independency groups and 2 centre-rights.
The Catalan independency movement is so not identical to either bourgeoisy or hard nationalism. Since the first years of democracy, since Jordi Pujol's time, we have said that Catalans are all surviving and working in Catalonia who feel Catalans, regardless of their origin. It does not substance the origin of parents or the language you talk – respect only Catalan language and love Catalan traditions, regardless of your skin color. It is, and it was only the far right would like to change those rules. However, the vast majority of the independency movement does not classify people in terms of cultural origin, due to the fact that possibly even half of the current population of Catalonia has Spanish roots, and this besides applies to many active independency activists. The divisions want to bring in what they want to destruct and halt our imagination of independence.
KR: Yes, it is evident that, in addition to the fresh initiative of Aliança Catalan, the Catalan independency movement is very inclusive. However, by observing all these trends within the independency movement – we besides see interesting implications of the global Catalan conflict for freedom. This is crucial not only for Catalonia, but for Europe as a full and even wider. I have read, for example, that since the situation in Catalonia is changing (which is besides controversial), Madrid, free of this threat, can change its policy towards Kosovo, recognise it, as it has already recognised the passports issued by Pristina. On the another hand, erstwhile Spain recognised the Palestinian State, there was a voice in the debate in Kneset that at this point Israel should recognise the independent Catalonia and the Basque Country. I know that Catalan media discussed how to behave in specified a situation. But my question is not about Kosovo or Palestine. I'd alternatively ask you to explain in a fewer words why Catalonia's independency is not just crucial to the Catalans?
DF: A very, very, very, very correct remark. I appreciate her. I hope my English will let me to explain it as accurately as possible. any say that Catalonia's independency will origin specified instability in Europe that we will be a complete disaster and so on. I feel precisely the opposite. I think it's just like instability to avoid.
I want Catalan independency due to my sense of nationalism, respect for my heritage, my culture and besides due to the chances of a better life through our resources. But I besides don't think that Catalonia's independency is like a canary in a mine. Here was our peaceful, democratic movement in the heart of Western Europe, a democratic Europe, a light of democracy and freedom – and it was crushed! besides crushed by Europe, which on October 1, 2017, saw nothing, looked the another way to not see what was happening on our streets. Our movement was massacred and no 1 in Europe lifted a finger. Yes, there were various pressures – they were yet granted, and then our leaders (good or bad) were threatened with 3 years in prison. And then nothing happened. That's the full story.
I so believe that Catalonia's independency is simply a treasure in the sense that, if Europe remains a group of national states oppressing each other, oppressing their minorities or persecuting their citizens' national feelings, specified a Europe will yet destruct itself. any say that our movement is weakening Europe. I don't think so. The only thing that makes Europe weak is that it does not perceive to specified movements, does not draw conclusions and does not recognise our rights. Today, erstwhile you can freely choose your gender, your religion – we inactive cannot choose our own nationality! We have imposed Spanish citizenship. I've never been Spanish or anyone in my family. And I'll never be Spanish. And I have my reasons, 100% honest. Catalonia has a story. Catalonia has its own heritage, language and culture that strengthens us.
So if Europe recognises these nations, if Europe recognises these rights, it will be stronger. It will face fresh threats that appear in the East or fresh threats that appear in another parts of the world. But if Europe remains blind to these nations, to this reality, it will yet lead to an explosion.
Britain has left Europe. Of course, possibly it's not fair. However, if Europe were fair – possibly the British would stay in it. And yet they left. That's why it's so important. Let me repeat: the canary in the mine. If the Catalans cannot win independency democratically, peacefully, with the majority expressed over the years, etc., what is Europe to us?
Catalan cannot become the authoritative language of the European Union. They say economical costs would be besides high. Well, alternatively political costs, due to the fact that then the same position would begin to apply for another number languages. But Europe is. That's the reality. So there are first-class citizens who have their own countries who can defend their nation, their own language and their own culture. And there are second-class citizens whose cultures and languages do not defend either the state or the European Union. What is this?!
What the hell is this?! What is the problem?! It is not the Catalan independency movement that weakens Europe. It is not listening to this movement that destroys Europe. I truly believe that. And that is peculiarly important.
KR: I full agree. I believe that neither the European Union nor Europe of Nations as a historical being will always be complete without the designation of historical nations and states specified as Catalonia and Scotland. So I want you the best, and I hope that we will have an independent, free Catalonia. Thank you so much for coming today.
DF: Thank you for this opportunity. Thank you very much.
