Conversation with Ramzy Baroud, a Palestinian polytologist, writer and author surviving in the United States.
The context is important
The first of my questions concerns the actual situation in Gaza. Let's start with what the real reason was to start Hamas surgery right now. What do you think was the intent of this operation?
– It has a long past and context, very crucial for these events. There is besides a newer context. The background has long been that Palestine is occupied. Gaza is the residence of refugees who went there as a consequence of the 1948 cultural cleansing. The West Bank is under Israeli military occupation. There is simply a strategy in Israel that can be called apartheid. And this is not just my view as a Palestinian, although of course I have a certain attitude to it. However, it is possible to trust on Israeli human rights organisations specified as B’tsel, leading global human rights organisations specified as Amnesty global and Human Rights Watch, with advanced credibility, which have analysed the situation over the years and have recognised Israel as an apartheid state. We so have specified historical background and related facts. But we besides have fresh events in Israel. Not only those that began after the establishment of the Netanyahu government in December 2022, but – I would say – from 2018 and even from 2017. The Trump administration then began to support the normalisation of relations between arabian countries and Israel, completely ignoring the Palestinian case as if it were no longer applicable in the political debate in the mediate East. The Palestinians were watching all this. They saw that Jerusalem was officially recognized by the United States as the capital of Israel, against global law. They saw that arabian countries were ready to trade them, and they became increasingly isolated and lonely. There is besides an global context: shifting attention to the war in Ukraine, to the situation in Syria, Libya, Yemen. This has completely distracted Palestine. Meanwhile, Israel began increasingly aggressively moving towards the annexation of the West Bank. He introduced laws denying all rights to Palestinians, Arabic, Palestinian culture, denying the right to territory and property. Their religions – Christianity and Islam – were besides attacked. There were repeated attacks on the right to spiritual practices, on the property of spiritual communities that were confiscated. All of this was under the supervision of the Israeli army. These actions were led by extremist ministers from the Netanjah government, specified as the National safety Minister Itamar Ben-Gewir, and the Finance Minister Becall Smotricz and others. erstwhile all this was happening, the Palestinians cried aloud, begging for global interest. It didn't work. erstwhile Hamas did what he did on the morning of October 7th, Palestinians could only be amazed at the strategy he applied, the boldness, how far he intended to go. No Palestinian, regardless of the ideological differences or the place of his residence, felt that these actions were someway unjustified or disproportionate. This was considered an answer and a reaction to what had been going on in Israel in the last fewer years.
Emotional detonation or plan?
I see. But was it a more emotional reaction, or a part of a strategy, a plan? Of course, it is besides early to estimation the final results of this conflict, but we are already seeing the tragedy of the Gaza bombings. There are most likely thousands of civilian casualties by now, although it is hard to estimation the actual number. Was there, then, a strategy in Hamas’ actions, or was it only emotional?
– It was absolutely not an emotional reaction. The explanation of emotional action can be applied, indeed, to erstwhile conflicts. Israel was usually hailed, and the Palestinians responded. You can say that any show of opposition under military business is simply a retaliatory expression, and so it is. specified a retaliation is the firing of hundreds of rockets by Palestinians in consequence to Israel's subsequent actions against them—throwing bombs on them, murdering them, etc. This time the Palestinians started. Not the aggression itself, but this concrete revelation of the conflict, due to the fact that they felt that the time had come. I believe that this was a well-prepared attack, together with another Palestinian and arabian organisations, especially with Hezbollah in Lebanon. The minute of action was very closely coordinated and planned. That's where the component of surprise came from. Everything that has happened is seemingly part of a broader strategy. It appears that all the foreseeable reactions of Israel have been analysed and decided to act the other way. alternatively of firing at night, it was done in the day. alternatively of rocket fire, they invaded the judaic settlements by foot, cars, motorcycles, and parachutes. alternatively of utilizing tunnels, they moved on the surface. Israel was prepared for something completely opposite, and the Palestinians acted completely different. I can imagine it took years to prepare. Therefore, erstwhile the Americans and Israelis say that the Iranian money that he defrosted Biden contributed to this, it is simply impossible. For different reasons. Like the claims that Hamas met Iranian officers in Lebanon. If specified a gathering actually happened, it happened 3 months ago. How, then, can it be assumed that money that has not yet been frozen has already been used, transferred, delivered for the acquisition of weapons and the creation of infrastructure, all in a fewer weeks? This operation required years of action and preparation. This indicates the reliability of analyses, specified as that published by Reuters, which say that Hamas was creating the incorrect impression that he was not heading towards a direct confrontation with Israel. These confrontational actions were left to another Palestinian group, the muslim Jihad, which sparked a wave of criticism among the Palestinians, even in Israeli media that wrote that Hamas dealt with the opposition movement from 5 star hotels. According to Reuters, it was all a cover. Hamas, muslim Jihad, and a tiny group of people knew this. Israel actually fell for it, reasoning Hamas had given up military action and left it to others. It makes sense, given the amount of preparation and resources essential for specified an operation.
Regional allies
What about Iran? You mentioned Hezbollah. Most analysts say it's 90% controlled by Tehran. Did Iran know about these preparations and could someway support them, even not necessarily financially but logistically and in another ways?
– I would not be amazed if this were the case, although, of course, the Iranians are strategically key, saying that it was only a Palestinian decision. I besides believe that the Palestinians themselves have made the decision, but that does not mean that they have not received support. Especially in the context of the fact that Iran and Hezbollah have been under tremendous American and Israeli force in fresh years. Hezbollah and Iranian bases were bombed in Syria. This happened regularly and as a consequence hundreds of militants, commanders, journalists died. But they did not decide to retaliate, to open another front. They had to deal with many regional and global issues that consumed them. So we had the force of years. Now, however, the conflict and war in Syria have gone a small quiet. Iran has a more favourable financial, military and strategical situation. This happens for various reasons, including the Russian-Ukrainian War. They are presently producing specified weapons that they no longer depend on their supplies from another directions. So it seems that the Iranians were ready at the same time as Hamas. And possibly it was Hamas with the execution of this movement that was waiting for the readiness of his another partners able to fight. I will give you a good example of how Hamas thinks and strategies. I said from the very beginning that Hamas realized that Israel was reacting highly and disproportionately to individual events, specified as killing or kidnapping a soldier. They would not, therefore, do specified a thing as virtually invading border areas and occupying more than 25 settlements if they were not certain that they were operating under a very circumstantial plan supported by Iran. Incidentally, evidence of this is not from Iran, Lebanon or Syria, but from Yemen. The leader of the Yemeni Huti Movement, fighting against the arabian countries supported by the United States, issued a message in which, while predicting the anticipation of US intervention, the operation was a decision of the Palestinians with which they had nothing to do with, but if the Americans straight attacked Palestinians, his movement would launch rockets towards Israel. It's a reaction nobody even predicted. It shows that no of the steps taken were spontaneous and emotional.
Analysis deficit
If the United States were to engage someway straight in the conflict, we could talk about at least a regional war, involving a number of actors from the mediate East. What about Turkey? Verbalna Erdoğan may have expressed his support, but knowing for the Palestinians. Could Turkey besides make any attempts, action for Palestine?
– We should be honest with each other. I think Turkey – like the Saudis, the United arabian Emirates, Jordanians, Egyptians and others – comes from the presumption that it has certain emotions towards Palestine, but these emotions do not substance from a geopolitical point of view. In a broader context, Palestine is of no real importance to them, both regionally and internationally. That's their conclusion. In September Erdoğan met with Benjamin Netanjah during the United Nations General Assembly conferences and meetings. This gathering was very friendly. He did not talk much about Palestine and invited Netanyahu to visit Turkey, declaring that after this visit he would come to Israel himself. This was for Palestinians who were aware of the geostrategic, emotional, and political importance Turkey had for them, a large disappointment. Will we now see Turkey resign from this soft position and return to stronger, solidarity with Palestine, public declarations of authorities, society, media? I think it'll happen sooner or later. I think that, at the moment, the arabian countries that had previously sought to normalise relations with Israel have started to be highly cautious. They saw that they had small political significance. Israel threatened to fire on all Egyptian convoy with humanitarian aid heading for Gaza. And yet, it is Egypt, Israel's closest ally in the region, which regular carries out the exchange of intelligence against terrorism and another matters. And threats from Israel to him if he tries to aid the Palestinians. Egypt is under tremendous pressure. We saw this on the occasion of an Egyptian soldier attack on an Israeli tourist in Alexandria. However, if we look at the communicative and discourse of Egyptian media, I mean pro-government media, it turns out that they are rediscovering Palestine. The meaning of Palestine, the brotherhood between nations, etc. due to the fact that there was a fear that it would all come to pay the price. Israel is losing and it is happening faster. The enemies of Palestine will thus become enemies of the Arabs. Friends of Palestinians will be friends to all Arabs. All of this makes you think about how it worked in 1 day, a fewer hours, a fewer minutes, to become an crucial part of the geopolitical game in the mediate East. How can this be achieved erstwhile under siege? This truly requires deep analysis and reflection. In fact, I think that we have a crisis among analysts about the ability to estimation what is happening in Palestine now.
American full unanimity
One more question, if you don't mind. You're watching all this from the United States. What do you think about the course of the information confrontation between the various images and narratives about the conflict? In Europe, we actually have the complete dominance of Israeli narrative, at least for now. What about the United States from your perspective?
– For the first time in a very long time in America, we have the complete unanimity of all media, intelligence, intellectuals, politicians on both sides. Yes, Republicans are trying to usage the substance politically by attacking Democrats and accusing them of giving money to Iran that they did not treat Israel well enough. Participating in the primary roles of the Republican organization Nikki Haley spoke in a shocking way on Fox News and no 1 questioned it. She turned to Netanjah with this frightening look on her face, saying, "Fill them out!" referring to the Palestinians. She called for genocide, and the Americans applauded it. I've been watching American politics for 25 years. I am active in debates, both in mainstream and in alternative. And I'll tell you, we've never experienced anything like this before. Even erstwhile we did not have much representation of intellectuals, journalists and Palestinian media in America, there was inactive a margin, we could talk from time to time. Now we've been completely erased. After all, we have crucial intellectuals, scholars, journalists, artists, 1 of the best educated communities here in the United States, and yet we have been removed from the map of American media. Only pro-Israeli voices and those which call straight for the genocide of Palestinians have the right to exist.
Well, unfortunately, the situation is rather akin to that in Europe. Thank you for this conversation. I hope you will find time to comment on further events, possibly more affirmative than those present. Thank you very much for your voice and expert look.
Matthew Piskorski spoke
Ramzy Baroud — Palestinian journalist, publisher and author surviving in the United States. In 2015, he obtained a Ph.D. in Political discipline (Palestinian Problems) at Exeter University. Since 1999, he has been editor and publisher of the Palestine Chronicle portal (www.palestinechronicle.com). Previously, he was, among others, the editor of the British mediate East Eye portal, the editor-in-chief of the paper The Brunei Times, and besides the deputy editor-in-chief of the net channel Al-Jazeera. The publisher, author of texts, among others, in "The Washington Post", "International Herald Tribune", "Asia Times". He is the author of respective book publications on Palestine, as well as respective 100 technological articles. She teaches at universities in the United States, Turkey, large Britain and Australia, among others.
