Van der Pijl: applying their reality to us

myslpolska.info 2 years ago

We place another part of the conversation between Mateusz Piskorski and Dutch polytologist prof. Kees van der Pijlem during his visit to Poland during the promotion of the book The tragedy of Ukraine. From Malaysian Boeing to War.

Modern panoptycon

I would like to ask about more individual aspects of the situation in which we are living. You wrote a large book about the pandemic of fear. I hope that it will besides be released here in Poland. You utilized the word panoptycon to describe the current situation of man in the modern world. How would you make that idea? Do you think today's society is simply a kind of panopticone?

Well, I should be honest. Concept panopticone Jeremy Bentham's old thought for a prison task is built in the form of a district. All prisoners are being watched from inside him. The thought of referring this to the current situation belongs to Foucault, in his book Oversee and punish. It says that controlling and surveillance the population is metaphorical panoptycon.

My longtime friend, Stephen Gill (née Canada), utilized a credit card analogy here. The card and all electronics, electronic means of communication and electronic payments let the main "observation tower" to control everyone. Now, of course, we live in a time erstwhile it is moving forward very quickly. So I gotta say it's not my idea, but it's an inevitable comparison. I forgot to add – to keep people in prison, they should not be told they are in prison. This is how we live today.

– Yes, but these prisoners, acting as prison guards themselves, censor each other.

Yes, exactly. This is self-censorship.

Society of Fear

– So do you think that the modern censor, which is peculiarly present in the time of the alleged pandemic, and now, of course, during the war, is the final phase to make a society of fear? You utilized that word and described it in your work.

Here I must mention to individual else again. This is Karel van Wolferen, author of the celebrated book The Enigma of nipponese Power 1980s. He founded his own two-weeks in the Netherlands criticizing the pandemic and now the war in Ukraine. He's utilizing the concept. ‘prescribed reality’ (application of reality). It's not just that the government is lying, like they always do. The authorities, pursuing their objectives, and in rule the ruling class and intellectuals acting for them, make themselves this “actuality”.

And you'd better submit to it, otherwise you'll be socially excluded. This can be compared to taboo in primitive society. If you do not believe in the gods and myths that regulation the community, you are excluded. I think it started on a larger scale erstwhile John Kennedy was killed. The CIA recommended American newspapers – erstwhile people asked about facts that came out a fewer years after the Kennedy assassination, which allowed to establish that their reports were false – to identify people who had doubts as supporters of conspiracy theories. From that point on, the usage of the word "conspiracy theory" became common in the "Washington Post" and "New York Times". Since then, there have been many examples of applied reality. They do not request to be mentioned here – it is September 11, 2001 and so on. All these cases adapt to the imagination of the world, which is increasingly far from what is actually happening. If you want to do a political, media, academic or even be a school teacher, you better believe it, due to the fact that otherwise you'll be isolated and thrown out of work. This is happening in front of our eyes with respect to the pandemic, and now, in a way, the war in Ukraine. If you don't believe Putin is...

A murderer and a butcher...

Yeah, that's right. In this sense, van Wolferen says that we have an applied reality that is becoming increasingly omnipotent. At the same time our ability to realize actual events is diminishing. Where would you learn that if you're here, where are you? It's the same with the media. In this respect, we are truly on the incorrect path, due to the fact that we must fight for our right to realize the real reality, which, of course, is always an effort, due to the fact that reality is not immediately unambiguous. We must besides fight for the right to discuss reality, due to the fact that it is the only way to scope it. If we all agree, we slow down getting to what's truly going on.

The Joy of Intellectual Boldness

– What would you advise an average teacher, scientist or writer in Poland? possibly not only in Poland, but in specified conditions. How do you think we can convince these people that specified intellectual opposition is worth the effort from their perspective?

It's easy for me to say due to the fact that I'm retired, so the government can't ruin my career anymore. In the United States, they can take distant all your work if you disagree with them. The way out is not to say, "Just fight, and that's it." Most universities depend entirely on external funding. The ability to print anything depends on the assessment of fellow scientists, which, in my opinion, are meaningless in social sciences. It's almost like censorship. So if I say to someone, "Well, just defend your rights," and that individual loses his backing and his articles will be rejected, it will not be very helpful. I would say that the effort to learn, the joy of discovering what could truly have been happening behind the curtain of “the applied reality”, is inactive worth it. It's a very satisfying venture. The choice of this peculiar way may make you – I do not want to say "better" – but a better functioning human being. This may bring you to a higher level of awareness in your environment, but you may besides hazard being rejected by publication sponsors. However, let us not forget that there are more and more alternate channels. The net gives unlimited chance to express alternate views, allows for attempts to rise standards of veracity and reality. There must besides be an effort on the Internet, due to the fact that before you know it, they will put you in the most absurd, "conspiracy" environment. Like I said, it'd be off my side. fair "Do it, do it." But what I want to say is that we can number on immense rewards for discovering what truly happened here or there. I have been in Poland for 4 days. I met wonderful people. Young people who are full of energy and optimism at specified a level that I begin to uncertainty whether they truly see the seriousness of the situation. I can't imagine – I won't mention names, but I mean the people I've met in fresh days – to not be inspired here in this wonderful country to proceed listening to what these people gotta say and why they stay optimistic despite the great, immense threats.

– Yes, it's fascinating that specified people are among us...

Well, I look at you...

In search of alternatives

– I am only 1 of many people who are trying to convey something that is not very popular here in Poland. Let's get back to the thought Contender state from our last discussion. To the imagination of the multipolar world. People who advance the thought of a multipolar planet – let us take, for example, Russia's fundamental thought of a possible specified planet – say that they do not want to impose any kind of universal social solution or political doctrine on others. all man in the planet should be able to find his own way to develop, depending on local traditions, religions, organizations, etc. Do you think that we request external inspiration to make an alternative, specified as socialists or communists from the russian Union in the past? Do you now see any country that could propose an alternate socio-economic order that could inspire others surviving in liberal capitalism?

I believe that 1 of the things we have learned from russian experience is that a revolution based on a narrow doctrine can lead to disaster. True, if we look at the governments of the Bolshevik Commissioners, at Gramsci and his friends in Italy, at Marxists in Germany, etc. – we will see the intellectual elite of the early 1920s. But this is inactive the presumption that the full society must adapt to the projects of a group of intellectuals, which I have just read a very interesting book about. Russian revolutionaries thought they were repeating the French revolution. They forgot, however, that the French revolution – which touched not only France, but the full of Europe – had since 1789 formed a bourgeois aristocracy, a spiritual and monarchic order that was unacceptable. After 40 years, they yet succeeded in dismantling the world. Then they started looking for very different utmost solutions for another society. Eventually, from 1930 to 1948, the revolutionary dream of the people of the erstwhile century came true. Not due to the fact that it was doctrine, due to the fact that it was not—but due to the fact that their social model was achieved by work, the formation of classes. France was an example of this, but let us not usage a negative example. Germany and Italy have modernised through the fight against the influences of France, which they initially adopted. The Bolsheviks thought they would do the same in Russia and failed. Although here we gotta consider whether Russia wanted to do it, whether it simply failed.

The planet was not ready for the planet revolution in the form the Bolsheviks thought. Then Stalin had to turn it into a dictatorship that brutally swept distant anyone who refused to accept its rules. He created the caricature of the intellectual inspiration of the Bolshevik Revolution. present it is better that there is no theory, only practice. There's adequate explanation to go right and left. At this point we request to reconstruct freedom to disagreement, freedom of intellectual inquisitiveness, freedom to measure the challenges we face, based as much as possible solely on facts. That's 1 thing. It's better not to go out with the explanation of revolution and so on, due to the fact that it's small. The inclusion of intellectuals or philosophers in the government is 1 of the most dangerous situations in which 1 can be found.

Is there a country that can be an example? My answer to present would be no. No country in the world, no Cuba, and surely no North Korea. In the block we live in, there's a man who worked for the United Nations in North Korea. He told me she was very corrupt. So even there, everything is fake. The fresh planet will appear from the current crisis. It is vital that we realize that the world's erstwhile order is in crisis, under pressure. I think a fresh order will appear in all society. Of course, at any point the transformation processes in all society will collide and possibly lead to conflict.

Hence, we request to think about what successful Eurasian experimentation in Eurasian could, for example, be co-operating with German, Western European or nipponese tradition. I think, for example, that if Japan had been able to break the policy of loosening monetary policy and manipulating currency, it would have deprived respective oligarchs, specified as Toyoda and any others, any of their assets. Japan could offer interesting solutions for others to change course. I know 1 author who said that if socialism came – it was written in 1970. - it'll come from Japan. Either way, it's practically worshipful predictions. It's about authenticity. Everything that happens must be intellectually authentic, politically authentic, based on our own effort and knowing of our own situation and intellectual heritage, which is within our reach, on remaining authentic. I can't realize why scientists accept self-censorship, applied reality. The same applies to politicians, journalists. They may indeed feel that they enjoy life as best as they can. It's impossible for me, but I say it from a comfortable position that many younger people don't have.

Socialism Big Data

– Being in this comparatively comfortable position, you effort to propose and propose solutions. frequently your vote gives hope for the emergence of a fresh socio-economic model. Tell me why you're so optimistic erstwhile it comes to, for example, chances of what you call socialism. Big Data? Is that possible? We are so afraid of the current strategy Big Data.

Exactly. That's why I wrote in my book on pandemic that from my point of view pandemic is an example of preventive counter-revolution. The ruling class, which has much better information than you and I combined and everyone else, is well aware that the digital revolution or the information revolution is comparable to the invention of printing, which led to reformation in the Church, to democracy. Digital socialism is simply a fantasy that we can be transparent about how much people earn, what people do in politics, what is the background of news from the media that comes to us. The Italian translator of my book on the pandemic, Daniel Dan, asked if I could compose a foreword in which I explained that at this point, laying hope in the digital future is not good, due to the fact that something else has to happen. 1 of the things I've come across and now it's actually crucial is that the previously comparatively good mediate class is forced to defend its own wellness today, due to the fact that during the pandemic we were attacked by governments, media, etc. It's a substance of carnal autonomy. The government truly wanted to insert needles into us to turn us into primitive robots. I put it in a way. I think this reservation must be taken into account erstwhile we talk about digital instruments for their full transparency, equality, democracy, etc. There must be added the defence of physical autonomy, the defence of health, which is not defined by your doctor and the pharmaceutical industry, but by you – based on the best available information – which besides comes from the Internet. Today, anyone who feels pain in his left hand starts looking on the net to help. You can besides think about vitamins, supplements, etc. erstwhile you go this way – it happens at full velocity (people practice sports, run, train) – you start reasoning whether we should pay – in our case 120 euros per period – for medical insurance, which is becoming more restrictive. Why don't we nationalize the full hospital, pharmaceutical sector? Why not impose much more restrictions, specified as vaccine companies? Robert Kennedy Junior, who was a kid wellness defender and is now a presidential candidate, calculated that present a tiny kid in the United States must have 72 mandatory vaccinations that are free of consequences for pharmaceutical companies. If you have negative effects after the vaccine on this list, the company can say, “Well, there is nothing we can do, now it is the work of the government.” This is simply a situation that needs to be fixed immediately. I think this is the second starting point, due to the fact that the thought of digital socialism, which I wrote about, for example, in "Monthly Review"But besides in the pandemic book, it's in the technological phase of fantasy. Technology never gives solutions to society itself. It only offers certain measures. As we can see, the ruling class uses it preventively for counter-revolutionary purposes and keep the current order. I think that this is the second component besides due to the fact that the better-paid mediate class can afford to buy expensive, uncontaminated foods, vitamins or supplements. They're runners, coaches. The working class is just besides mediocre for that, they're costly passions. I think this could be part of a transformation towards a better and more sustainable society for middle-class refugees, erstwhile we halt cutting down forests and poisoning the environment. I just read that we eat 1 credit card a week.

Yeah, lots of plastic.

Yeah. But since we know this, I think the mediate class' contribution to the revolution may be closely linked to the cult of wellness and be an component of bodily autonomy, while the lower classes may come out of the classical conflict for a better life, higher income, or decent working conditions.

Polish inspirations

– Let me ask you 2 last questions – about Poland and Poles. First question – was any of the Polish authors or thinkers any kind of inspiration during your technological career or someway impressed you?

Yes, Vladimir Brus. And Rose Luxembourg, first of all. Adam Schaff, too. I just listed those whose books I have at home. I would gotta look at my bookshelf, what I have from Polish works. 1 of the privileges of being an intellectual is that erstwhile you take a book off the shelf, you don't check what the nationality of this or that individual of the author is. You read it due to the thoughts in it. For example, we were just in an old prison, now it's a museum. We saw Feliks Dzierżyński's cell and as I stood there, I realized that the creator of the secret russian police was a Pole. Why would it substance to me? I never focus on whether someone's Jewish, etc. These are secondary issues, and ideas are universal. The border is only a language that limits it to a circumstantial area. I think Poland has... I'm besides talking about music, of course. I just bought Chopin's nocturnals. I besides have Penderecki, Lutosławski, these contemporary composers. I have a collection of Szymborska poems.

- Wisława Szymborska?

Dutch, translated. Poland has a rich history, not only of political thinkers and large figures. I always thought Gomulku was 1 of the most interesting leaders of the russian bloc during the Warsaw Pact. Poland has a very rich cultural, intellectual and political tradition. Gomulko played everything very wisely in 1956. This makes you wonder where Poland is today. I mean, I met you and your friends from “Polish Thought”, about various biography, including people from the “Vectors” publishing house. How is it possible that the same Poland creates only parties, on the 1 hand Sikorski and Tusk, on the another hand Kaczyński, and on the planet phase it is represented by shameless vassals of the United States and NATO structures, supporting the fall of Russia (which will never happen)? So it's better for Poland if they start looking for another, better option. I think there is simply a striking contrast between the level of wealth, the arrogant past of this country – although tragic in many respects – and the function it plays now.

They won't leave Poland alone.

– Well, you partially answered that question, but do you think the United States or the Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-Saxon block Heartland, which we must discuss by our way, would he be ready to leave Poland and its like countries alone under certain conditions, due to the fact that he would be curious in another region or another matters?

No, it doesn't work that way. After 1991, I came to the conclusion that we were fundamentally back to Wilson's reaction to the Bolshevik Revolution. His thought was always the planet hegemony of the United States and the English-speaking West. That is why present the United States reacts so furiously to the manifestations of sovereignty shown by China, Russia and another countries. They are preparing a conflict, not only in Ukraine, which they provoked, but besides others. They made a deal with Papua fresh Guinea a fewer weeks ago. It states that all airports and ports in the country – the right half of large Island alongside northern Australia – will be available to United States military units. So this reminds us that even the farthest reaches of the planet will be colonized by the United States to put their troops there. Therefore, they already have about 850 military bases in various places abroad. So there will be no situation in which the United States will say, "Good, Poles, from now on, do your own thing." That's not how it works. They'll want to keep control at all costs. There's 1 way out. It depends on the Poles. If 60% of citizens who are not voting now return to the democratic decision-making process and make their voices heard, it could change the situation of Poland. But not a decision in Washington.

– We can only want for this, that 50-60% choose independently. Thank you for everything, for this conversation, but I would besides like to thank you again for coming to Poland.

It was a fantastic experience.

– This has besides been very crucial to us, so we are counting on more visits. In Poland we will always welcome you and we hope to see you again.

Thank you!

Matthew Piskorski spoke

Photos – Wojciech Trojanowski

Picture – Tomo77 (Tony Aguero)

The first part of the conversation was published in “Polish Thought” (No. 27-28, 2-6.07.2023), as well as on our portal and on the channel Against the Censur, where the second part will besides be available from 4 July.

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