Who was the initiator of the fresh protests in Tbilisi, this effort by Georgian Majdan?
Gulbaat Rcchiladze: – I will say this: it is specified a peculiar Majdan, to any degree only resembling Ukrainian events. It's a softer version of them. Thank God, we didn't have any dead snipers like Kiev. quite a few my friends were worried, called and asked if I was safe. Meanwhile, in our past there have been much more serious demonstrations and brutal pacifications. This time, it was just a group of provokers who demolished the city's central street. On television, it looked very dangerous, but in reality the police managed. She could have completely suppressed this – utilizing a paradoxical word – organized chaos. Policemen hesitated not due to the fact that they were physically incapable to cope, but due to the fact that they did not receive appropriate orders. The Americans and Europe most likely intervened, forcing the resignation of the suppression of protests. And the next morning, they besides forced a halt to the discussion of the draft law on transparency of abroad influence. Later it turned out that our Prime Minister had been called by US Department of State advisor Derek Chollet, who demanded straight that the bill be withdrawn, otherwise sanctions would be imposed on our authorities. They would usage the same weapon as Russia. Only Russia is simply a different scale and that is why their impact is small. For Georgia, this weapon is dangerous. Representatives of her highest authorities keep all their money in Western banks, their children survey at Western universities. Therefore, opposition to Western force is hard and even impossible. And the West has its agentship everywhere: in the Georgian government, in safety forces. In a critical situation, it can work from within. That's partially what happened. The heads of non-governmental organisations afraid by the bill turned to the people of science, culture, athletics that they erstwhile co-financed, so that they would come forward with open letters that Georgia had to join the European Union, to NATO that we had no alternative, and that the bill had to be abandoned immediately. The nation's not out on the streets. average people treat them indifferently due to the fact that they have no usage for them, but for a fewer exceptions. Social pressures and active youth have so been exploited. Most of these young people were under the influence of drugs – different pills and marijuana. In Georgia, possession and even trade of tiny amounts of light drugs are allowed. And then specified young people, who do not know their own past and who do not talk their native language very well, begin to believe that we must go to Europe and NATO, and Russia is the enemy. They can't say any more, but they know the passwords by heart.
At the end of 2013, students initially gathered. Later all these extremists joined them. But let's decision on to the behaviour of Georgia's president, Salome Zurabishvili. During the protests, she was in the United States and supported the demonstrators from there. On her own initiative, did she just get these guidelines?
– There she met with national safety advisers in the American administration, Jake Sullivan, with another advanced - ranking officials. But her behaviour should not be surprising. The background of Georgian politics should be recalled. Zurabishvili is from France, a household of Georgian mensheviks. I believe that she truly hates everything russian and Russian. She's a very direct woman. Behind Saakashvili she became abroad Minister, but later went to the opposition, which gave her any public support. After the change of power, she began working with the Georgian Dream party. And then our informal leader, Bidzin Ivanishvili, unofficially moving this organization and government, offered her a presidential candidacy in 2018. However, it lost its popularity and people did not support it. She almost lost to the United National Movement candidate Saakashvili. However, she succeeded thanks to various political technologies provided by Ivanishvili. Why did he support her? most likely due to the fact that that's what he was told to do abroad. Zurabishvili is simply a French citizen, so far she has been retired as a erstwhile diplomat of this country. He's an agent of Western influence. Besides, she believes it. It is her speech that shows that she is not our president, but a spokesperson for abroad countries. The same was actual in Lithuania.
You mentioned Ivanishvili. How much does he actually control Georgia now? Does he completely control the organization and the government? How much can an oligarch like him be independent of the influences of various Western structures?
– erstwhile the authorities changed with us in 2012, the United National Movement lost the election, the fresh parliamentary majority of Georgian Dreams elected Ivanishwili as Prime Minister. He served for about a year. He later resigned, but retained his influence on all decisions, the government, parliament, the party. Then began the cleansing in the courts where the followers of Saakashvili were. any of the judges of Ivanishvili dragged him to his side, for which he was heavy criticized, and any of the justice strategy cast fresh people. However, it was hard to find so many fresh judges. He kept his influence until today. The current Prime Minister, Irakli Garibashvili, is his man. He was at Ivanishvili's, say, errand boy and then made him Prime Minister. Why did he like him so much?
He was possibly the youngest prime minister to lead the government for the first time. He was, like, 30...
- Yeah. He was rather a trade negotiator. It is known that erstwhile Ivanishvili erstwhile bought a chopper in France, Garibaszvili studied there and at the same time worked with a billionaire Kartu group. And during the conversation about the price of the chopper he joined the negotiations and prompted the sellers to leave the price. And that's what Ivanishvili liked. He made him Prime Minister, later replaced him with 2 another politicians, then reinstated him again in 2021. Ivanishvili's bodyguard, Wachtang Gomelauri, became head of the MMA. His man was in charge of security. besides the force departments control Ivanishvili. The Minister of Defence and Minister of Economy are already Garibaszwili's railroad friends. In general, we have their friends and friends in the government, and they are all loyal to Ivanishvili. Those who say we have an oligarchy strategy should remember that we have only 1 oligarch in our hands. We have authoritarian rule. Like another people who managed to get large capital, Ivanishvili is considered a genius, including in the sphere of politics, geopolitics. Hence our problems. Although he can play perfectly, he has been in power for more than 10 years. He besides has informal conversations with Moscow. Unfortunately, it is not based on the national interests of Georgia, but alternatively on its private interests. The normalization of relations with Russia is for him that we can export wine and foodstuffs to it, the border can be crossed somehow, although this is hard due to the fact that there is only 1 border crossing, Wierchnij Lars, and after all, 1 could open the Rokski Tunnel in South Ossetia, a railway way through Abkhazia. Conversations and arrangements on this subject were already there, but Georgia later abstained. Ivanishvili stopped in the mediate of the road. He listened to besides many different people. erstwhile he became Prime Minister in early 2013, his first guest was well-known to everyone George Soros. They met publically at Ivanishvili's private residence. And behind closed doors they discussed the future of Georgia.
So where did this bill come from? After all, Georgian dreamers should have realized what the reaction would be.
– In 2019, there were any disputes and disagreements between the West, especially the Americans, and personally Ivanishvili, erstwhile a parliamentary assembly of Orthodox parliamentarians was held in Georgia. Do you remember the protests at the time, much bigger than the present, due to the arrival of Russian deputies?
Gulbaat Rcchilagze
Are you referring to the speech of Duma MP Sergei Gawrilov?
- Yeah, that's right. The West has since lost assurance in Ivanishvili. His criticism appeared in the Western media, or from a group of American congressmen. They were said to be Saakashvili's paid lobbyists at the time, but his people have no specified influence on American politics. In 2020, Ivanishvili stressed that he was a typical of American interests in the region and that is why he must not be criticized in this way. In fact, in this way he told the Americans that if they did not support him, he did not should be their front. After all, we have Azerbaijan, which does not even mention joining NATO. We have Turkey, which, although a associate of the Alliance, has an independent policy. Armenia, whose Prime Minister Nikol Paszynian has ambiguous views on this matter. After the start of the war in Ukraine, Western distrust of Ivanishvili became an open conflict. Georgia took a average position on Ukraine. So we have a confrontation. Ivanishvili wanted to show what he was capable of and press this bill on pro-Western structures.
In addition, Saakashvili arrived, who was arrested. But he was very disrespectful in prison; he was a mentally sick man. Today, he is simply a laughing stock due to the fact that he did not even manage under the good prison conditions that he was created. He behaves not like a man, and in the Caucasus, specified people are not respected. In this way he besides discredited his organization in which the divisions began. Ivanishvili felt he was getting stronger. He so stated that he could address NGOs that are actively against him. I'm certain the bill was his initiative. He was convinced that now that there is war, the West would not announcement that it would someway pass. On the another hand, this bill was very mild. He introduced only the sign ‘agent’, but he did not forbid anyone.
Like the 1938 American regulations...
- American is simply a lot tougher. It is not known who convinced Ivanishvili that now is the time for specified a bill.
I watched parts of Prime Minister Garibaszwili's interview for Imedi television. And there it clearly points to the geopolitical context of fresh events. That Georgia was tried to get into war. Why so harsh?
– He doesn't just call it cause. He talks all the time. He doesn't say that America is trying to get us into the war...
He's talking about Zelensky.
- Yes, Zelensky. But it's not Zelenski giving us instructions, it's Washington. And he should say that America is trying to drag us into war against Russia. And let him turn to Putin, due to the fact that Georgia cannot argue the United States and Russia at the same time. And we don't even have diplomatic relations with Moscow...
You have a trade.
– Yes, but at the 1990s business level, with cash settlements. No bank operates a transaction between Russia and Georgia. Everything happens on a semi-legal basis. Garibashvili should besides tell you precisely what war is about. Where can Georgia make a second front? Shall we enter Ossetia again? But this is our territory, and it's hard to open a front in your own country. Unless you fight against the people of your own country like Saakashvili. Of course, the government in Kiev would very much like to distract Russia. The Americans denied always wanting to make specified a second front. Indeed, they never mentioned it loudly. Ivanishvili suggested that she spoke about this unofficially American Ambassador Kelly Degnan.
I think this pulling of the line will continue. After fresh events in Rustabel's avenues, the government weakened and almost lost control of the situation. There is something else that could have been predicted before: that the full government environment – journalists, parliamentarians – is trying to sit around. As shortly as they felt pressured, they immediately started posting EU, Ukrainian flags on their social media profiles. Actually, that means they're against their own government. This power can fall very rapidly due to the fact that it is based on a group of people connected with political and financial interests, but nothing more. They're not bound by any ideology. Ideology has only pro-Western environments: extremist Atlanticism, NATO membership at all costs. And there is no discussion, no pros and cons, even among professionals. Everything has been vulgarized, they may call you a rusophile and an opponent of the West, if you are against it. It all comes down to a drawer, limited to this cave level. We didn't have anything like this in the early 1990s, during the civilian War.
I am besides amazed by any statements by your politicians, especially your opposition politicians. erstwhile head of MMA Ivane Merabiszvili talks about the request to change government to pro-Western and pro-Ukrainian. Not progruzi...
- Yes, it's thoughtlessness. Georgian Dream already uses this statement. Merabishvili served respective years for his dense crimes from erstwhile he was a minister. A very mild sentence. Apparently, he has mostly lost contact with reality. He seems to have quite a few support, influence. That is why he makes mistakes, specified as this statement. It doesn't matter. The alleged civilian society that organised these riots is important. Josep Borell said utilizing Molotov cocktails was nothing. And on the another hand, erstwhile we had speeches against LGBT events on 5 July 2021... Authorities quietly supported them due to the fact that they refused to let LGBT marches on the main street of Tbilisi, but did not want to ban them themselves. Thus, they allowed conservative youth to effectively block this march. And these people broke the rainbow flag from the March organizers' office and damaged their office. due to the fact that it's unacceptable in the capital of Georgia, the Orthodox country. There was besides a conflict between conservatives and liberal journalists. After that, 32 people were arrested who are inactive in prison. They got five-year sentences. On March 8 and 9, police cars were knocked over, police were beaten, stones were thrown. 150 people were detained. And everyone was released. This is simply a selective application of the law. It's no longer the regulation of law. any laws work, but others are no longer covered. And it is no longer Europe – it is lawlessness.
17% of the population of Georgia live below the poorness line. But, if I'm not mistaken, there were no social slogans in fresh protests.
- Yeah. The people who protested don't have specified problems. Most of them have no financial difficulties. These people wanted to make a coup. And they partially succeeded. I stress that this coup will have a creeping character. First, the current government begins to implement their demands, then the next. Protesters have late been completely disconnected from the realities of average people's lives. They're not curious in these problems. They do not see that most Georgian emigrations live in Russia, that Georgia depends much more on trade with Russia than on trade with Europe. 95% of wheat and cereals in Georgia come from Russia. If we gave it up, we'd have a deficit, or we'd gotta buy more. The social problems you mentioned can only be resolved by working with Russia. In the meantime, our country has self-insured the post-missive area in the name of Europe. Our constitution explicitly states that we are to search EU and NATO membership. I hope that fresh events can someway sober up our government. And in that sense, they can benefit.
Finally, I will ask about Poland. We have many stories about what almost a hero for the Georgians was the late president Lech Kaczyński. Do you have an alley called Kaczyński in Tbilisi?
- The street.
So Kaczyński is simply a cult figure in Georgia?
– As a citizen of Tbilisi and Georgia, I must say that no 1 specifically mentions Mr Kaczyński here. There's a street of his name, and even his small bust. Similarly, George Bush, who besides has his own street. But the large banner that erstwhile hung over it replaced a tiny black plaque. All the more reason for Kaczyński. average people don't even remember individual like that. I'm not saying it maliciously, but I am.
It's crucial due to the fact that we talk about almost a myth.
- Yeah, it's just a myth. Kaczyński was no hero. He was a friend of the disgraced Saakashvili who brought Georgia into the war with Russia with disastrous consequences for our country. Kaczyński, along with these Baltic trifles, came here in 2008, reportedly to save Georgia. He didn't save anyone. Everything was already agreed, the Russians were not planning to attack Tbilisi. And they came here without any risk. Just as now they are coming to Kiev, knowing perfectly well that during this time Russian rockets will not arrive there. Kaczyński and the others came here to strengthen Saakashvili's power. It is regrettable that Georgia, Poland and the Baltic countries have long been utilized to annoy Russia. I say this with much more sympathy to Poland than to Ukraine. Poland is associated with civilization and advanced culture. We had Polish residents in Georgia, even since the 19th century. We have always treated Poles well. Incidentally, my godfather was a Pole. But this anti-Russian policy... Well, it's a substance of Poland. But for Georgia, I find it wrong. And Kaczyński can be a hero to a narrow group of people who late went out on the streets. Most don't know who it was.
Thank you for talking to me.
Matthew Piskorski spoke
photo public domain
Gulbaat Rcchiladze – Georgian political scientist, doctor of political science, founder of the Eurasia Institute in Tbilisi.
Think Poland, No. 13-14 (26.03-2.04.2023)
