Mateusz Piskorski: Professor, have you always been to Gdansk?
Aleksander Dugin: – No, I have never been to Poland, only by passing erstwhile I was travelling to Germany.
I ask due to the fact that it was the liberal authorities of this city, supported by Ukrainian immigrants, who did everything to prevent presentation of your published in Polish in the Polish Book Library of thought series. They were afraid you'd come to this presentation. Why are the Liberals so afraid of the Lord, those who say that Gdansk is simply a “city of freedom”?
– I have never been to Poland, but I am absolutely convinced that 1 day I will go there. erstwhile the Hegemony of Liberals ceases to be and Poland becomes a strong, independent and sovereign national state. At the same time, I do not think that the attitude of all Poles to Russians will someway change radically. However, I think that many Polish politicians who value sovereignty and tradition will decide on the dialog with Russian conservatives based on common respect. Of course, something unimaginable is happening between our countries now, given the level of hatred from Poles, due to the fact that the Russians mention differently. However, I believe that all of this is temporary, due to the fact that we must always take into account the principles – tradition, Christianity, family, holiness. These principles have always been part of the Polish identity. Of course there are liberals in Poland, as they are in Russia, and around the world. But these people are enemies of Poland, Russia, enemies of France, Germany, the United States, another countries. Liberals are people who hatred tradition. They consider themselves progressive and do not admit any references to conventional values. We conservatives and traditionalists defend these conventional values. Of course, there may be crucial differences between these values of Poland and Russia, Russia and America, Poland, France or Germany. The most crucial contradiction, however, is not what separates the Polish traditionalist from Russian. The most crucial contradiction is the 1 that separates traditionalist Polish, Russian, German and liberals. due to the fact that liberals have no tradition, they hatred all conventional values – Polish, Russian, American, German. They don't consider us human, and that's why they protest. Moreover, I think they are afraid that supporters of conventional values of different cultures and nations, even those between whom there are historical contradictions, will begin to perceive and unite. That's why you're reacting.
I met with a akin 1 from the Liberals in Italy who panicked over my many years of close contact with Italian traditionalists. As shortly as they invitation me to Italy, liberals do everything to thwart the presentations of my books, my speeches. The same thing happens in Greece, France, wherever my leg stands, there liberals start a rebellion, they shake with hysteria, they bite their nails and others, they wrap themselves up with LGBT flags, they go into a frenzy, they lube in the faeces to block my speech. I think Poland is no exception here. However, I think that even under these hard conditions, Polish traditionalists will keep their distance and find in my works what might interest them.
Some of the Polish Conservatives who have become acquainted with your works, especially philosophical ones, admit that you are influenced by German doctrine and geopolitical thought. And they make criticism based on that assumption...
– To be honest, I like European culture very much. Above all, European traditionalism. The top authority for me is René Guénon. He's a French Conservative. Another crucial authority for me is Julius Evola, an Italian traditionalist. In fact, I like German doctrine very much – phenomenology, classical philosophy, medieval thought, scholastics. First of all, I am a Russian patriot, an Orthodox Russian and for me appeal to specified European geniuses, traditionalists as Guénon, Evola, Hegel, Schelling, Brentano, Heidegger, Nietzsche, French intellectuals – Durkheim and many others; it does not mean that I am under their influence. I see in them similarities to the Russian soul, find in them the most interesting philosophical, metaphysical themes, investigation their thoughts and theories, adapt to the Russian Logos what can be adapted. As far as geopolitics are concerned, erstwhile we look at its classical edition on the battles of the Land and the Sea, we will see that, for example, Mackinder felt that Russia was the biggest opponent of the Civilization of the Sea. Meanwhile, German geopolitics, Haushofer, have distorted somewhat classical geopolitics. I am a consistent supporter of this classical version, a model invented by British thinkers, according to which Germany occupies an intermediate place.
At the same time, I believe that continental Europe should be an ally of Russia. In Europe there are 2 poles – England as the most Atlantic pole, and Germany as the most continental pole. That is why Britain has pursued the most anticontinental policy, hence the thought of the Inter-mortar and the Sanitary Cordon, which I believe are close to Polish Conservatives. But this must be said, and if the destiny of Ukraine does not convince Polish conservatives enough, as specified service in the function of the errand boy to British geopolitical interests ends, then the substance is difficult. And it can be learned from this that Poland, Polish conservatism and the conservative-traditional circles of east Europe could reject the function of the sanitary cordon and become a bridge of relationship between Heartland, the large continent of Eurasia and the tiny Heartland of continental Franco-German Europe. This must be discussed calmly, without historical resentives.
Returning to criticism from any Polish conservatives, after the release of your last book, they reminded fragments of an interview with you from 1997, published by, I do not know if you remember...
– "Fronda Magazine".
Yeah. I read that interview, too. And any say that you called for Poland to be removed from the map of Europe...
– Let them read it again. There's nothing like it.
I know, but that's the kind of thing that's going around.
– You know, even if Poland was at 1 time a master of rusophobia... Poles are the nation that has the most reason not to like us. So this russophobia is, so to speak, historically justified. I say this not in the sense that we should show ourselves that we are guilty. It just turned out that in any period the Polish-Lithuanian state, with its identity and power, was a stronger contender to be an empire than the Moscow Russian, very tiny at the time. And then this rivalry of who would be the main organizer of the imperial space of east Europe and beyond Eurasia began to be won by us. So we were very serious to each other, very close, but with different identities, competitors. So there was a period of Polish-Lithuanian state erstwhile it was stronger than Moscow. But then she gradually built the power. I realize perfectly why Poles hatred Russians. I besides realize perfectly why the Russians do not hatred Poles. due to the fact that we won and Poles lost this competition. And among Poles many, e.g. Hoene-Wroński, understood that this failure showed the rightness of the Eurasian, Moscow approach, and Poles should reflect and look favourably at the message of the Russian Empire. Of course, the Polish nobility tradition, Sarmatian tradition was rather different, more feudal, and this Russian imperialism was outrageous to Poles.
After all, I think that we have the basis and the right reasons for dialog with Poles, due to the fact that Poles utilized to be stronger than us, erstwhile equal to us, later weaker. But Poles have grounds to dislike us. And already Ukrainians, who in reality do not have (it is simply a completely contractual existence, a chimera), have no specified basis. They were not a subject, they had no statehood, they were part of our western lands, our east Slavic region, which abruptly declared itself Poles. It's specified a maniac of greatness. erstwhile they jump on madja, they truly want to be Poles, they want to jump to the level of "gentlemen", although it is not available to them. So we actually have a very deep polonaphobia of the Ukrainians next to rusophobia. The Liberals, however, are not interested. They don't care about Polish identity. And to us Russians, it's not indifferent. If you scope into the volume of my Noomachi devoted to Slavs, you will find out with what deep, tragical sympathy I am writing about Poland.
That's what I wanted to talk to you about. After we passed as Poland through this imperial stage, which you said we became and are now a medium-sized national state, 1 of the fewer almost monoethnic countries of modern Europe. What place do you see for Poland on the map of Europe, from specified a civilisational point of view? Can it simply stay specified a national state, or should it besides participate in any large-scale integration projects?
– Firstly, if we look closely, we can be certain that modern Europe is building an anti-national state. So the European Union proposes not only to negate the nation, but besides to negate borders, institutions, identities. Monoethnicism is actually a immense obstacle to Poland's integration into the EU, as is the fact that in Poland there are less immigrants, LGBTs, post-sex identities. This makes Poland “non-European” according to current European standards. Attempts to strengthen the national identity of the Polish state and society while at the same time, deeper integration into Europe, simply attest to the divided personality; it is schizophrenic, internally contradictory. I believe that the level of nationalism that tolerates the European Union, globalists and Atlanticists is linked to the implementation of pragmatic, clearly defined tasks, as was the case with Croatia during the dissolution of Yugoslavia. To attack Russia. So Polish nationalism is accepted only if it is rusophobic, an instrument of rusophobia, support for the terrorist government in Ukraine, a possible front for the attack on Belarus. That is why the EU tolerates this Polish nationalism.
But if he went beyond this role, he became more serious if Poles started talking about their Catholic identity, their tradition and their strong national state, they would become enemies to the EU. In the current LGBT-EU for Poland there will be no place for besides long. It is to service exclusively as a platform to attack Russia. Therefore, there will be a place in it either for liberal Poland, but with rusophobic nationalism, or for none. Long-term planning of Polish policy should be based on searching for a place in any alternate context: either conventional Europe; or in an alliance with countries that will defend their autonomous, European, continental identity and strategy; or in an alliance with a great, reborn Russia-Eurasian empire; or – and this is interesting – in a task that Russian political scientist Alexander Boldunow calls the large east Europe. The point is, however, that east Europe is not a eurrhage. There's no point in saying that we Russians will come and set up our own house. No, we won't. east Europe is something different from us. But looking on the another hand, east Europe, that is Poland, Hungary, Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria, is not precisely what Western Europe is completely different. This full area, this Intermmortal, the Baltic-Black Sea Belt, is not truly Western Europe or Eurazia. England utilized this to make a sanitary cordon to disrupt Germany with Russia, specified as now blowing up gas pipelines. And if this area were not specified an obstacle, a sanitary cordon, and would become specified a circumstantial civilizational space of east Europe, preserving its independency from the western and east neighbours, not a tool of the Anglo-Saxon forces, then the destiny of Poland could be completely different.
After all, this full large east Europe is very conservative, traditional. He represents what Gellner called agrarian communities in his book. It is actually a very different kind of society, different from that in the Eurasian Empire, but besides from that in liberal-democratic Europe. large east Europe is simply a distinct kind of population. Poland can be specified a central centre in this arrangement and would not gotta renounce the position of a national state. I think that would be a very interesting perspective, but it requires a completely different approach. First of all, we would gotta get free of liberals and Atlantic curators who do not think about it at all, due to the fact that they are not curious in Poland, just like Ukraine and another countries. They build only their Anglo-Saxon world, their hegemony, in which there is no place for Poland, but for the function played present by Ukraine – forposted to attack Eurasia.
Moving on to the territorial aspect of current events – Russian media have late frequently talked about the possible connection of Western Ukraine to Poland. Personally, I don't think there's any reason. Poland does not have the possible to implement specified projects. But let's look at it from a geopolitical and civilizational point of view. I remember that in any of your works, you considered respective of the westernmost regions of modern Ukraine not belonging to the Russian world...
– You know, there are no specified clear, unambiguous boundaries. Volyn, Galicia, Zacarpathia were part of various state organisms. Of course, there are mostly east Slavs, mostly Orthodox. In a sense, these are the western ends of the east world. For example, if Poland joined Volyn, it would cease to be a monoethnic state and would have an enclave of east Slavs with a different identity. To be honest, I would consider the anticipation of separating western circuits from Ukraine and guaranteeing them any autonomy within the framework of Polish-Hungarian-Romanian agreements. It is clear that Ukraine will no longer exist. Also, these circuits will either be liberated and integrated with us at the price of major losses, or something will should be done about them. So why don't we consider this option? In fact, their identity is distinct, but it is besides different from Polish – these are Orthodox east Slavs, and Poles are Catholic Western Slavs. Volyn was part of the Polish-Lithuanian state, as well as present Belarus, or for a time and Smolensk. Later, however, all Poland, along with these lands, was part of Russia, and let us remember that too. But I think it is unrealistic, due to the fact that globalists and globalist liberals in Poland alone will not let anyone to seriously consider this issue.
Some Polish nationalist or conservative circles may think about it and could even engage in dialog with Russia on this matter, but they have no influence on real politics. If specified environments exist, they are alternatively dreamers, specified romantics, most likely rather good people, but for their rusophobia. Even if they liberated themselves from this russophobia and began to discuss the division of the erstwhile Ukraine, this terrorist state, taking into account the Polish influences in the west, in Volyn, it seems to me that at the state level there are no forces capable of addressing this issue. Poland is not a sovereign national state, but a colony of the Anglo-Saxon planet integrated into the European Union. Neither Anglo-Saxons nor the EU pay any attention to Polish nationalism, nor do they pay any attention to Polish national interests. They just want to usage Poland against the Russians. If there were serious liable political forces in Poland that would declare that they want Volyn, we could start dealing with them. But I'm afraid there's no specified force.
There's no specified force at all. There may be a fewer publicists, social activists, but political forces have none. And the ruling organization of the Law and Justice, which declares its conservatism, according to the Lord, but besides to me, has nothing to do with the Conservatives. For them, for example, the Green organization is closest to the German parties. Why? due to the fact that they have the most anti-Russian position...
Of course.
It's the only criterion now...
– Greens in Germany are far-left liberals. Not only Russophobes, but besides the worst of globalists, Germanophobes. They hatred not only Russians, but Germans. perceive to their statements. There are supporters of cannibalism, pedophilia in this party. These are the worst chaffs, just Germanophobic. Also, if you say that a organization likes the German Greens, it means that the organization besides hates Poles, that it – regardless of its name – is simply a polonaphobic party. There are no major anti-patriots, cosmopolites, supporters of legalization of all perversions than the German Greens.
Let's go back to Poland. In an interview with “Frondy”, you mentioned the thought of Jan Stachniuk as a kind of civilization alternate to Poland. Let us callback the harsh criticism of Catholicism in his works. How much do you think the spiritual origin is hindering us from trying to start a dialog between Poland and Russia?
– This interview dates back many years. I noted that Zadruga, Stachniuk, and another extremist patriots of this current, were more fond of Eurasia than Catholics. Later I studied this issue and drew attention to the Polish concept of Christ of nations based on uncompromising, terrible, historical hatred of Russia, as the homeland of east schismatists. Poles wanted to be more Catholic than the full Catholic Western Europe. Therefore, it is impossible to miss the link between Polish Catholicism and rusophobia. These 2 issues are very closely related. In trying to establish contact with Polish patriots, I turned to specified number ones, it can be said – marginal environments with which a reasonably serious dialog has been conducted. But it did not substance much.
It is much more crucial to build relations between Russian conservatives and Polish, Orthodox and Catholics, although Polish Catholicism at the level of its genesis, the structure has this rusophobic side. Of course, it would be easier for us to communicate with Catholics, due to the fact that we have a lot in common – the defence of family, gender, man. Christianity would have brought us closer together, if it had not been for this inseparably connected with the Polish Catholic identity of Russophobia. We are open to dialog with Catholics. In fact, I think we could turn a blind eye to russophobia. 1 could arrange that simply brothers, Poles and Poles, already at the very beginning they went 2 different ways. 1 brother followed the eastern, Byzantine, Orthodox road. And the West Slavic brother said he'd go another way.
We've been competing for centuries. erstwhile we won, erstwhile you. And that makes me respectable. I don't know how many Russians do, but at least I understand. Of course, I shudder from russophobia, it's not pleasant to me. But it seems to me that – erstwhile I started studying Polish identity, Witkiewicz, Potocki and others, Polish cinematography, Polish literature; Leśmian, whom I like so much (this is 1 of my favourite poets)... erstwhile I see all this, read, watch... I don't know, possibly there's any Polish, noble blood in me and something's going on. 1 of my ancestors, somewhere in central Ukraine, according to the chronicle, came from the marginalized Polish noble family, whose representatives were later recognized as specified local Ukrainians. I don't know why, but this peculiar Polish honor is understandable to me. possibly it's related to these roots in the bankrupt noble household from Poltava.
Anyway, I get it very well. My identity is completely different – Orthodox, imperial, Eurasian, deeper than east – so fundamental, great-Russian. But paradoxically, I think that Western Slavs and Poles realize very well. And possibly this is the answer to your question of why they are so afraid of me in Gdańsk (I will be there on an obligatory basis). I think I'd effort to start a dialog in the right tone. Very fewer Russian intellectuals, conservatives, non-liberals and non-globalists can draw attention to Polish identity. I can. I am someway hypnotized by any conservative-romantic aspects of Polish culture.
That is why we hope for your next books, including in Polish, through which we will learn about your look at ourselves. present we talked about Poland only. another topics we hope to address in the next talks.
He spoke to Alexander Dugin: Mateusz Piskorski
Think Poland, No. 5-6 (29.01-5.02.2023)
